Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dundee Community Garden

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to Community gardens in Nebraska. Number 5 7 11:42, 27 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Dundee Community Garden[edit]

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No evidence of notability. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:31, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delete all references are to the organisations website. GoldenRing (talk) 09:18, 19 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Nebraska-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 04:21, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 04:21, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The article has been updated to reflect additional reliable sources (newspaper), addressing the previous comment regarding references. --ScottHW (talk) 07:44, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hardly. One local newspaper story does not make significant discussion in multiple, independent, reliable sources. GoldenRing (talk) 13:25, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It obviously did negate that comment, which asserted "all" references were of one type. --do ncr am 22:56, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. It would be good if more references could be added. And multiple references from the same newspaper would suffice for me. Browsing, it seems there has been a big community gardens initiative in Omaha and elsewhere in the state, e.g. this consortium of 70 community gardens (not including this Dundee one) and many other hits. An alternative could be to create a new List of community gardens in Nebraska and to redirect this article to that, merging content, complying with spirit of wp:PRESERVE. --do ncr am 22:56, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment~~Keep~~. In addition to the edits made by Doncram, I added three additional independent references; one from the ABC affiliate in Omaha, another from the Omaha newspaper, and a third a web press release from Omaha Bikes. I believe this should easily satisfy Doncram's request for more references. With multiple independent, reliable sources, as requested by GoldenRing this should article now meets wp:Notability#General_notability_guideline. --ScottHW (talk) 02:13, 21 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I struck the 2nd Keep vote by ScottHW. You're welcome to comment multiple times, but voting just once, is what's done here in AFD process. --do ncr am 16:12, 24 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delete it seems locally significant, I don't see wider coverage that would make it notable for an encyclopaedia. otherwise all community gardens will end up in WP. LibStar (talk) 02:38, 21 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe most/many of them will end up in WP; by their nature they are public nonprofit beneficial entities that engage the community and will tend to have coverage. Like museums, most of which are Wikipedia-notable. I do think now is a good time to start developing big lists of them, with or without separate articles at first. This one is fine by me. --02:48, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

"Like museums, most of which are Wikipedia-notable" WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a reason for keeping. LibStar (talk) 02:53, 21 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Huh? wp:otherstuffexists states "these comparisons are important as the encyclopedia should be consistent in the content that it provides or excludes." Museums are good to have covered, in general. I think community gardens are too, and we should be consistent, and consistency is a valid goal for editing in Wikipedia. --do ncr am 18:18, 22 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

~~Delete~~. A Google web search for ("dundee community garden" omaha) turned up no significant coverage in media outside the Omaha area. A Google News search for the same terms produced nothing at all; the older material cited in the article was caught by the first search, so I don't think we're missing anything significant.

We don't appear to have a specific set of guidelines for community gardens as places. However, if we regard DCG as an organization—and much of the article is given over to treating it as such, discussing its 501(c)(3) status, its funding, and its board of directors—then it seems to fail notability under WP:AUD: "[A]ttention solely from local media, or media of limited interest and circulation, is not an indication of notability; at least one regional, national, or international source is necessary."

Notability guidelines in other areas also suggest that purely local coverage is insufficient to establish notability; for instance, WP:GEOSCOPE states that "[a]n event affecting a local area and reported only by the media within the immediate region may not necessarily be notable." Absent significant coverage from media outside the Omaha metro, I'm afraid that we don't have notability. Ammodramus (talk) 17:01, 22 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that wp:AUD is relevant, but isn't coverage here regional? I do agree there's a judgment call involved about whether Omaha, Nebraska-area coverage is "regional", and qualifies. But Omaha is apparently (per Wikipedia): "the 60th-largest metropolitan area in the United States in 2013 with an estimated population of 895,151 residing in eight counties." That population is bigger than 87 out of 236 nations in the world. The Omaha World-Herald, per Wikipedia, is a notable paper serving Nebraska and Iowa, and is unusual for its high penetration rate, its ownership by Berkshire Hathaway (if BH's purchase did go through?), and being "the only remaining major metropolitan newspaper in the United States to publish both morning and afternoon editions." And KETV is an ABC regional TV station serving a big area.

On balance, I think that regional coverage is enough, and this is a relatively new and vibrant entity with momentum (with its big carrot in parades, and the bike tour, and its new ownership of the site and its 501c3 status and its board) and ScottHW has done a good job developing the article, and there should be more coverage emerging. And there should be more even treatment of community gardens in Wikipedia, but there is so little coverage that specific criteria aren't clear. So, I say KEEP this for now, and if there is not further coverage within 1 year, i will personally stand aside if someone wants to revisit and AFD this again. --do ncr am 18:18, 22 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"population is bigger than 87 out of 236 nations in the world" does not elevate the area to a greater than nation status. That is a weak argument. Does Omaha-Nebraska have a seat at the United Nations? What is relevant is the 60th-largest metropolitan area in the United States which doesn't make it a major city.LibStar (talk) 11:36, 23 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Although the Omaha World-Herald presents state, national, and international news, much of its material can only be regarded as local reportage. For example, it runs articles on many local businesses, including a review of a local bar and one of a local restaurant every week. If we regard coverage by the OWH as establishing notability, then each of these hundreds of local businesses could be the subject of a WP article. These include Omaha's first Chick-fil-A location, which was the subject of much breathless coverage by the OWH around the time of its opening.

The phrasing of WP:AUD refers to "local media, or media of limited interest and circulation". The disjunction suggests that a large (i.e., not "limited") circulation isn't enough: the medium must be non-local as well as widely read. This seems to be corroborated by WP:GEOSCOPE, which denies notability to events "reported only by the media within the immediate region", with no exception for local media with large circulations. Ammodramus (talk) 03:26, 24 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I don't grok how "the medium must be non-local as well as widely read" applies; it comes down to whether you think Omaha region is big enough to count as a region for purposes of wp:AUD or not. Point taken about coverage of purely local coverage being included in OWH...but also if the OWH region is big enough then the coverage could be viewed as transformative in a way. Like for example a human interest type story in the New York Times about a local restaurant owner making good, or whatever, seems to bring some real importance to the subject. Since few New Yorkers will ever pass by that local business, it must be the case that the New York Times coverage is establishing some higher importance. Truly local coverage which should not be viewed as establishing notability is the small-town newspaper type coverage merely serving role of providing publicity for local businesses and advertisers. You can, and do, have a different view on whether OWH coverage of Dundee Community Garden is significant enough; i think it is truly of interest, not mere publicity serving the group. --do ncr am 16:02, 24 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I further don't get some distinctions that Ammodramus is trying to make, but Ammodramus takes offense on behalf of small town journalists by my comment above. Umm... i agreed with Ammodramus that some local coverage, of the type merely serving role of providing publicity, doesn't count as much for Wikipedia-notability. I observe that small town newspapers have different kinds of articles, some being sort of puff pieces as Ammodramus says. But I did not say all small town newspaper coverage was of that type, and in particular I said the OWH coverage of Dundee rose above that. The coverage is of interest and not simply publicity (and a community garden is not a business and does not need publicity particularly). I think he projected that I implied a generalization that i did not, but anyhow i strike the comment. Whatever. --do ncr am 04:00, 26 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Merge into an article on Community gardens in Nebraska that covers the movement, the bike event and notes this garden. Candleabracadabra (talk) 00:24, 26 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This newly-created article doesn't seem to be any better sourced than the one currently under discussion: one of the two sources cited in its current version is decidedly not independent, and the other is a short TV news story about a bike ride associated with community gardens, almost entirely about the event rather than about the gardens. If it came up for AfD, my first inclination, based on the citations in the article, would be to support deletion (although I'd have to dig for sources myself before !voting). Candle, can you provide better sources? I'd be more inclined to support a merge if the target article wasn't itself a potential AfD candidate. Ammodramus (talk) 21:20, 26 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ask and you shall receive: seven empty city lots to be turned into community gardens, City planning document, local award, News story on city council vote for community garden, news story on a community garden makeover, story on celebration of community gardens and another story on a community garden program in Omaha. Seems to be kind of a big deal in Omaha. Candleabracadabra (talk) 22:55, 26 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Merge per Candleabracadabra, who's come up with enough sources to establish notability for a community-gardens-in-Omaha article; move target article to Community gardens in Omaha, Nebraska, since the sources don't seem to cover any other locations in the state. Ammodramus (talk) 00:02, 27 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I appreciate the discussion about this article, and the reasoning behind various points of view. Four things stand out.

- The initial point about reliable references has been well addressed. That should have been done long ago, so the "peer editing" process worked like a charm. Wikipedia FTW. Actually... I guess it maybe should have happened before this was listed as AfD.

- The "notability" of the Omaha World Herald seems to be relevant to this discussion, but also a distinct side issue. Whether OWH references meet the threshold for "Notability" should be an ongoing discussion. Is there some audience size, or media market size, that makes a newspaper "Notable"? Some media conglomerate ownership status? Or affiliation, a la TV local network affiliates? It seems unfair to use that contentious topic against the many references that have been given for this article, particularly since several of the references for this article are NOT from OWH.

- It has been suggested that this article might not meet the Notability criteria for an Organization. Any Community Garden is an amalgamation of physical location, garden members, and oversight organization/board of directors, among other things. I feel that this article could be improved to focus more on the garden itself, and that the incorporated 501c3 non-profit organization is de-emphasized and made a specific sub-section. In this spirit, I will work to make such changes.

- Regarding idea of merging this article into a List of gardens within the city (or state), Dundee is a particularly outstanding garden, even compared to other similar organizations. I added another reference that states this explicitly. I agree such a List would be beneficial, and will gladly work to edit and improve that list. However, much like Parks in Omaha, Nebraska, some of the parks in the list are article-worthy in their own right. DCG could be added to the list, but based in particular prominence, I feel it should remain its own article.

ScottHW (talk) 03:50, 27 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note that the concern about the Omaha World Herald is not its notability but its reliability. GoldenRing (talk) 09:50, 27 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.