Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Der Grüne Wagen

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 19:07, 4 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Der Grüne Wagen[edit]

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PROD rationale was: In English as-is, this is an A7 candidate. I'm only not A7ing it because the German version has an (unsourced) claim to significance, allegedly as "one of the oldest German-speaking touring companies since 1945". Did I find a source for that? Nope. Did I find any sources mentioning it whatsoever? Also nope. It's a WP:GNG/WP:NORG fail right now.

De-PROD'd by Encyclopædius with the edit summary "Not a candidate, a", which isn't very explanatory. It certainly was a PROD candidate, given that it hasn't been PROD'd or AfD'd before. Unless they meant not a candidate for A7, which isn't actually what I tagged it as. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 08:35, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Theatre-related deletion discussions. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 08:35, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Austria-related deletion discussions. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 08:35, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nomination. Kolma8 (talk) 18:10, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete We really need to expand the biographies of living people prod process to any unsourced article.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:35, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. One of the more important German theater companies. It is mainly known for its directors and actors, as would be expected. A very impressive roster. Aymatth2 (talk) 20:15, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Great, so you can obviously provide a couple of in depth reliable sources to back those claims up, yes? ♠PMC♠ (talk) 22:43, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I finally had time to go through the sources and although there have been a great number of citations added, few are independent or reliable, and when they are, the actual content in them about Der Grüne Wagen is quite thin. For a theater company of such apparent importance, you'd think there would be more in-depth independent coverage than what's been provided here. In the order provided in the article:

N Own website - not independent
N Tournee Theater website - major venue for the company, not independent
N Mention in a footnote - not significant
N Single-sentence mention
N Only getting snippet with no preview, but appears to be single-sentence
N "Biographisches Lexikon der Theaterkünstler" translates to "Biographical lexicon of theater artists" - lots of appearances, however this is not content about Der Grüne Wagen, merely mentions of it in artist bios
N Personal website - not reliable and anyway only a mention of Der Grüne Wagen
N Snippet view, but name only appears once in the book, for a couple sentences
N Same personal website as number 7
N Content is about Jürgen Wilke, Der Grüne Wagen is mentioned exactly once
N This is a self-written CV for a guy who works with Der Grüne Wagen, it should be obvious why that isn't independent
N Content is about Thomas Stroux, Der Grüne Wagen is mentioned exactly once
N Per the front page, "Theapolis is the largest portal for theater professionals and theater job offers in the german speaking area" - ie it's not independent news media, it's an industry networking site
N IMDB is user-generated and not reliable
N Snippet view useless, it's sideways, so I have no way of even reading it
Y Finally, an actual review of a production! This is both independent and reasonably in-depth.
N Advertisement for a show, not independent content
? Actual review of a production, although it's mostly about the play in general, with little commentary on the performance.

So we're looking at one really good source, and the rest of the article is cobbled together from trivial mentions, commercial sites, and even fansites. If this is the best sourcing available for this company, we can't possibly keep this article. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 10:03, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Notable theatre company, probably German language newspapers offline have even more to go on but easily sufficient for a keep!.† Encyclopædius 20:29, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Missvain (talk) 03:23, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Those wanting to keep have said that the subject is notable and that there are sources. I'd like to know which of these sources are reliable and sufficient to establish notability. If there are a couple of good sources then those should be referenced clearly and the content provided by the unreliable sources should be removed.―NK1406 ^{talk•contribs} 17:24, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The sources are reliable enough – no reason to doubt their accuracy. They cover the involvement of directors and actors in the Grüne Wagen and its productions. They give a solid historical overview of the ensemble. Again, the roster is something of a Who's Who of the German-language theater world. Aymatth2 (talk) 17:49, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Augsburger Allegemeine full article
full article
full article
Nord Bayern newspaper dated 14 Sept 1963, full article
Zeit one of Germany's main newspapers, full article behind a paypall.
And Zeit again all I can access in a search is "Salzburger Regiegastspiel will William Dieterle die "Medea" von Robinson Jeffers für den "Grünen Wagen" " Sources which cover it extensively will be in newspapers and theater journals like those offline.
Like this Die Bühne, Issues 340-351 p.37 snippet all I can see is "Hollweg gelang GRÜNER WAGEN es , das an sich undramatisch starre Schema ohne Denunziation der frühen Frommes ... Auch wenn vor szenischen Kalau E inst von William Dieterle geleitet und Richard Strauss : Zwei Premieren ern nicht ".
Also covered in Dierterle's biography over several pages which I can't access. If somebody had access to German newspaper archives we'd find much more from the 50s and 60s.

There's enough to pass GNG though given the actors who've toured with it you'd expect more extensive coverage in contemporary papers online.† Encyclopædius 20:25, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 09:00, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Third time is the charm!
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Missvain (talk) 00:20, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The nominator admitted one source in article to be valid, Encyclopædius has found more, while I found this book that quotes reviews of one of its productions [1], indicating many more reviews. Should qualify under GNG. Hzh (talk) 15:45, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. The WP:GNG is not met. Most of the sources do not come close, as detail, but even references 16 & 18 fail. 16 & 18 do not make secondary source comment on the theatre group, they just list fact about the group, and the very limited comment is on the group's production. I am looking for the most basic comments, such as "Der Grüne Wagen is old", or "Der Grüne Wagen is a good theatre company", any adjective describing the company though preferably its history, and it is just not there. A couple of show reviews is not enough. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:23, 3 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.