Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dennis Donaghy

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. JohnCD (talk) 16:16, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Dennis Donaghy

Dennis Donaghy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Vanity autobiography of a short time member of two margionally notable (at best) bands. This article self serving deceptively sourced puff piece. While musicians may be notable from being a member of two notable bands he was only a short time member. (And is Blanket Statementstein really notable? If that gets deleted we are left with one.) Sources that actually mention him only mention his name and instrument. Nothing to build a BLP with. A few mentions of his name does not justify this self serving deceptively sourced puff piece. duffbeerforme (talk) 11:41, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

• STRONG DELETE (added by Phaedrx) Phaedrx (talk) 02:37, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Hey Duff thx for the afd and tags i hope this gets resolved anyway any u guys read this looks like I was welcomed in pretty definitively as a DD page goes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Phaedrx#See_Archive_A thanks again, but please be fair this is the 3rd or 4th afd already, I havent touched the page save for two uncontroversial edits since it was 'revented' as I say by user REVENT, well after all the Archive A stuff but forget it right cuz its the subj? try reading Archive A Duff, Pinky, everyone who thinks they care or know whats up with this DD 'Vanity' page. really? some vanity... not one cent , not one promotional email or spam to anyone anywhere, extremely low traffic for a wikipedia page... I have nothing much to promote save for my wiki-ing skills (uhh getting better) and a rather reliable live performance clip validating my guitar playing and singing (official artist Youtube page live performance Eleusion Temple produced especially for youtube although its not grammy award winning its me as is it's phaedrx so to speak. and no one is asking me for the many other details which havent even gotten mentioned or discussed due to I didnt care all that much but if the afd is going ahead cant i bring up more notability defining stuff in my own defense? I understand if I feel which I sort of do that I am being harrassed I am a living BLP subject and can complain about Duff and Pink's treatment or what I feel is f'ed up about their fascist witchhunt I mean participation in this free society dare I actually engender that 'Forcing S**t about S**t Without Knowing S**T About It, But Only Because I Feel Like It' which I so detest and runs contrary to the spirit I have found otherwise in Wikpedia!. thanks and LONG LIVE WIKI WIKI WIKIPEDIA PEDIA PEDIA!!! with or without me and hey I'm no Bono so don't think I tried to Vanitarily Promote Myself Unambiguously Here (injoke for us wikipedian burbas or higher) MAYBE that was harsh in spots but Duff you forgot to write a big bold even red or bright yellow or something DELETE !!! Phaedrx (talk) 01:03, 29 September 2013 (UTC)) dUH, sorry pls dont skool me for that, I figure if you make the afd thats yer vote hah! but they need to count em so put it up in BOLD is my suggestion. Thanks Phaedrx (talk) 01:51, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Delete, but maybe don't listen to me. I have always felt notability was pretty marginal here; the WP:MUSIC guidelines are just that, guidelines, and as User:Duffbeerforme says, one of those two bands is pretty marginal itself. It also has a serious problem inasmuch as it's basically all been written by the subject (because the subject is not notable enough for anyone else to care).

... but, I have become very frustrated with the subject's COI editing, and perhaps am not in a position to take a neutral view on deletion. Pinkbeast (talk) 14:59, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

be fair please. The 2 count em two dd page edits that phaedrx did over the last five months thats like 20 weeks, 140 days, thats one helpful noncontroversial edit per 70 days on the DD page, and lots more on lots of other pages per 70 days). Meaning after Revent (who i have no relation to other than being co wiki volunteers) combed over the page alone, the 2 post revent edits were as follows: I am a member of a non controversial society (TNS) and when mr MacKay told me on the phone he switched TV stations, that was the day in July I think I changed the dd page. So i touched 'my' ( i know its really ours pink not mine, but ours pink means me in there too just like you or anyone reading this!) so I touched (actually IMPROVED) the dd page twice in like four months. After it was neutrally purged by a non related wiki person quite adequate for the task (Revent). And this was like in June!!! People. Get over ur selves. Meaning revent neutralized it and those two are not very strongly COI as far as edits. Last thing pinky baby loosen up why not even offer friendly help? Get the page out of wiki, ill still be around helping out you can't push me out that way any more than anyone in the Triple Nine Society can invalidate my official 165 and 146 IQ scores. Peace Phaedrx (talk) 23:34, 28 September 2013 (UTC) ( no socking I'm a stickler too all... I hit the four squiggles but my iPhone shit down on low batt and when I turned it back on I forgot to log in all you sticklers remember what I say I myself am one so stop sticklering a stickler! Kidding since if I am one I am in favor you being one. Just take it easy. Phaedrx (talk) 23:34, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Keep. It could do with better sourcing and maybe less on his current solo work, but he does seem to have been a member of multiple ensembles that received enough ink to be notable, which makes him meet one of the WP:MUSIC criteria for notability. We don't forbid subjects from writing their own articles and on balance it's good to have the bare minimum biographic details - birthplace, education - that are otherwise hard to source in many BLPs. In other words I don't see it as too terribly puffy. Yngvadottir (talk) 15:06, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Nevada-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 18:06, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 18:06, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

"I can't vote but I can contribute/comment" hi all my name is Dennis I am not here to fight or glorify myself despite what you might be convinced of. All I ask is open your mind and be fair. For the record I love Wikipedia I created about three pages entirely myself (button king and golden eagle regional park) and lots more hopefully significant or helpful edits etc. that aside, please also keep in mind the whole entire reason I drafted a page, by the rules though bending them maybe into that everpresent grey area for y'all to push back so to speak (that's 'Bold-revert or just BOLD' I believe). There's a diff BW that and being unambiguously self promotional. I was careful then it was plowed through once and can be done do again and agaib of course whether or not I care. But I don't. I encourage it thats how this works and remember this if you need balance: I only created the damn thing when I was told (look it all up that's what's great about the NSA oops I meant Wikipedia everything gets stored) anyway I only made the damn thing when I was told I couldn't remove my name for the BSS page. Let me repeat the page only came about AFTER (pls see bss afd page for wikimembers resolving or at least addressing this very 'notability' question the only true 'no-no' being alleged yes?) )when i get to a pc i can link it or cut paste necc stuff faster or someones assistance woild help to link that one here as the cases and some important details overlap. ONLY AFTER I asked to come off the Wikipedia on April 14th was it? (reasoning being I had no online presence Facebook, no Twitter, none of that. No online presence before April 2013. I was a counterterrorism editor and almost in the FBI NSB...check out the phony Alaskans are googling me Dennis Donaghy bs blogger page I tried to trhow ppl off with that haha, it shows I was trying to eliminate my public online presence back in April '13 when the PHAEDRX/SEE ARCHIVE A contents were being saved to wikiland) And a private citizen/special Ed teacher. If youre a teacher u try to ensure a fair or balanced online presence- balancing privacy with public presence as a teacher, and trying to be fair to all parties as a role model to the kids you teach) I have never toured with a band. I was never on very famous things but decide fairly is all I'd say is remember Phaedrx himself said please take me off of the BSS page, then since i was 'outed' as a former BSS drummer I wanted to set the record straight without any need to lie. In fact there's more notability or 'KEEP' supporting stuff I can bring up here or in the help chat that may end up I this page, I just don't know every guideline. But it's not Carnegie hall or letterman or anything; c'mon guys I know I was not a fulltime pro musician (very tough to try) and thats why i rounddd it out in the personal life section plus characterizing myself, correctly i believe as a music outsider or an 'outsider' musician. That i definitely am anyone who knows me would say so. and finally remember I worked fairly hard on this DD phaedrx page and not making a red cent in anyway musically lately or ever really so no profiteering here, i can assure you anx uhhh my wife can assure you no other nonmonetary uhhh musician benefits are being reaped by this page nor my outsider music (yet?) but i earned my notsbility was the point of all that I am not earning a cent in music now and I did my life events that reflect permanent wiki notability as currently fixed actually of course fixed before wiki ever got me here . plus but more so on the Wikipedia itself and finally that I myself have already AFD'd the DD phaedrx page twice this is the fourth of third Afd. Thanks all rock on Pheadrx I m a nice person if u get to know me but if u feel delete say it but say why and allow a response thanks for letting me ramble. Phaedrx (talk) 22:13, 28 September 2013 (UTC) ps sorry one last thing if anyone wants to help a couple old friends on their pages. These dudes are much better known than me and have pages maybe someone can put it together nicer instead of cracking down I mean go for it if u think that's right but also someone maybe take a look at the Carl Restivo (self created, not molested/you know what I mean, neutralized independently like mine was by revent or you meaning anybody except me (subj) if you're up to it!) or Martin Perna (self created, unharrassed/not much editing assistance) two very notable famous dudes who also made significant contributions on their own pages. It's not any more vanity just because the person is less notable. Also Daptone, Bosco Mann. And look at Yishai Romanoff, pesach Alpert associated with BsS equivalent or lower reference quality than DD/Phaedrx. From whenever I first read a Wikipedia page to April '13 I was nothing but a avaricious reader of Wikipedia. Now when there's a story in the news I am familiar with it have specislized experience in, I log on and try to bump myself up from burba but that's just me. I think afd roman emperor thumb up or down I will be here helping you guys. Phaedrx (talk) 22:28, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Delete The subject has been in marginally notable bands for short periods of time, and has received little to no mainstream press coverage for his efforts.

• Page creation: The page was created by apparently inactive User:9fu3hn9u in a series of edits after which User:Phaedrx who self-describes as "Dennis Donaghy" on his user page took over and made little fixes and tweaks to the page. User:9fu3hn9u never reappears in the edit history after User:Phaedrx appears. This is not in itself any grounds for AFD, merely an observation. My former experiences on Wikipedia with this editing pattern have always previously been puppets.
• Notability: If the subject had true notability, this discussion would never even come up; as it is, I vote to Delete the page due to marginal or no notability. Members of far more famous old bands do not even have their own pages (e.g. | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elaine_%22Spanky%22_McFarlane which while it is url-named after "Elaine Spanky McFarlane" was renamed "Spanky and Our Gang" to include the entire group. I really feel that Dennis D. isn't anywhere near the league of Spanky and our Gang, he was not the leader of any groups and while he played with other groups which may have achieved some marginal notability later, I really don't see that rubbing off backwards on one former band member. I searched Google books, news and blogs and found only self-published mentions; Google Scholar returned nothing on the subject.
• Potential conflict of interest: Looking at the history page, it would appear that Phaedrx spends a lot of time on page tweaking this entry. There are two schools of thought on this, one that editing oneself is always WP:COI and the other that it isn't. Since it says on the COI page "This page in a nutshell: Do not edit Wikipedia to promote your own interests, or those of other individuals or of organizations, including employers. Do not write about these things unless you are certain that a neutral editor would agree that your edits improve Wikipedia.", I adhere to the former (do not edit your own page) as a simple policy removes even the appearance of conflict-of-interest. I agree with User:Phaedrx that few of his edits have major substance, however, they do contain poor citations and WP:POV statements leading to WP:COI issues. While COI is not sufficient by itself for AFD, it is part of the situation.
• Problems with the article other than the above: Beyond the subject's lack of notability, the citations and information supposedly confirmed by the citations in the article are a jumbled mess. His name doesn't even appear in citation #1, instead they say a "Dennis D." was in the band. Now 'scuse me, but there's about "About 178,000,000 results (0.42 seconds)" for "Dennis D." in Google, I don't think that citation #1 should be used to confirm anything. That problem continues throughout the citations. Information is cited, but the information doesn't appear in the article/webpage. The quality level of some of the cited pages is poor. There are no secondary sources such as books about the subject. None of the "big-name" newspaper/magazine articles cited mentions the subject by name, they are about the bands he used to be in and of which he no longer is on the roster. I searched both New York Times articles and Seattle Times stories for "Dennis" and didn't even find his first name! I would thus say that the band he used to be in has achieved notability, deserves their own page and he could be mentioned on that page under the heading "Former band members." I think the citations at present do not support the alleged notability of the subject and I am unable - after searched Google Books, Blogs, News and Scholar - to find any which do.

Thus I agree with the nomination for deletion for this page. I arrived at this AFD discussion by invitation from User:Phaedrx whom I never met before. My comments have no personal bias as I have no relationship or interest in the subject, have never edited on his page and never heard of him or any of the bands he was in before tonight. I also left him a message on his talk page. Ellin Beltz (talk) 04:06, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

*PHAEDRX REBUT TO ELLIN* Wow did not expect that. Kinda sorry I asked a person who knew absolutely nothing about this very complicated case to vote. Note to self, backfire! haha. You guys are still confused but the best points made so far Ellin! The errors I refer to are: YES, I wrote the page. FIRST OF ALL The sock thing, issue....

1. 1) *Page creation:* Ellin: its all in the archive. It's actually in the THIRD SENTENCE on my user page (sitting there ever since I created the Phaedrx account with Yngvadottir's help as before that I didn't know about socking, wasnt trying to sock, and had already explained this 'sockpuppet-looking' behavior. I can see how I was accused of trying to sock but I wasnt I remember what happened plus I wrote about it back in April. I can go thru it again but no on seems to care what I say. Now also, I declared that 'sock' to be me and no longer in use. Why Ellin who knows nothing can come in and confuse ppl more is not the best thing for this community. Just becuase i am the subj doesnt mean I dont know lots of good info in this 'case'. HAVE I BEEN DECEPTIVE OR made bad edits since joining this place? No, quite the opposite, but why Ellin wants to can my page,I believe you are off-base. but this dont look good as I say. Oh well...but lemme just say again, BE FAIR, and realize After a third-party User named "Revent" neutralized the Dennis Donaghy page was back in April or May, I only touched the DD page twice (2 times) to fix it up. nO ONE IS ASSESSING THE QUALITY OF THOSE TWO EDITS CUZ THEY SUPPORT MY CASE AND THEY'RE GOOD EDITS. So no, I do nOt "regularly" EDIT MY OWN PAGE. i DONT EVEN regularly edit Wikipedia, only when I can and want to. and when I did edit 'my' page (actually Revent's version of the page about me) the two times (that's 2) it was ONLY to improve it not make me look better.

1. 2) *Notability* - This was established in the record already, not sure if you saw it. I have many chat room screenshots and talk page postings showing me my irreversible notability! This is weird. I was told I was unequivocally notable several times by several people here. Nobody here do I have any personal relationship or connection to. This is only confusing now as I respect Ellin's logic to rid of me as well in some ways. PS NOBODY is responding to me when I say I have more Notability establishing stuff. If you delete me you'd better look at the other BSS drummers with their own pages mine is better sourced than theirs #2b) I like yr logic but its not major media appearances that determine notability it's BEING IN TWO NOTABLE BANDS DUDE! Think about it- Spank Our Gang, not a good WAY TO KNOCK dENNIS dOAGHY OUT OF THE wIKIPEDIA. Spanky was NOT in TWO NOTABLE BANDS! I was though, but Ellin's clout looks too strong to surmount here and I WILL NEVER SNOWBALL even my own page (see my failed Quantonics page's speedy delete that was one of my first (failed assignments)

1. 3) *the COI thing* Uhh, I feel like there's an echo and a cricket chiirping... This Revent person neutralized it as far as I was told, but if it needs more neutralizing that's one thing- in which case AFDing it is probably extreme, but hey its me as subject so I'm in a tough spot here... Remember it's not a "COI" conflict IF the edit is noncontroversial.... The 2 count em two post-Revent Dennis Donaghy page edits by phaedrx are the TNS society membership (not too controversial but again, NO ONE HAS ADDRESSED THIS FACT in my defense) and the other was when I spoke to Frank MacKay on the phone he said they changed TV channels so I changed it after verifying it in the open source that very day I spoke with him in July. So I don't edit my own page all the time despite everyone seeming to think so..

1. 4) *Problems other than above*: Beyond being clearly told several times in chat rooms and on talk pages (screenshots available), that, "sorry, you have been irreversibly * Established as Notable* " ( I can provide these screenshots and the relevant wiki archival text if you dont believe e and I dont expect belief from you, nor even addressing this from anyone out there, cuz no one addresses my points, but I am writing it anyway....;) Several times this year by several independent unrelated ppl here at wiki weirdland, I was told ;'forget it you're notable' 'they can never undo your notability'... I have those screens. I guess they were wrong but I built a whole online thing if this gets deleted I will have to undo all that which I was anonymous online from 2007 and earlier to April 2013 when I saw BSSBFTUK WITH SWEDISH DESIGN in the wikipedia and on the new york times. I asked to come off their page, they said no. (i feel like a f-ing idiot repeating this so much) SO I made the DD page when I was told I was unable to remove my name from the BSS page. And Revent and Yngvadottir and ChrisGualtieri and Huon and others helped me.

So, beyond being Actually Notable (or told many times clearly that that is the case) (BTW, I said it already, no one listened, why do I even do this? HEY GUYS!!! there IS more to establish me as a musician, as DBA's first drummer on record (WITH FULL LAST NAME ELLIN) besides the Dennis "D" thing, the D thing happened when I was being ANONYMOUS, as I have repeatedly said, YOU CAN ASK ADAM RABUCK I made him put D instead of Donaghy (I have other sources that show Donaghy) And I have the original blue vinyl record that has me on it...this is getting absurd. So I was almost in the FBI and when this was happening I intentioanlly had zero online presence (no facebook, no twitter no anything) until the whole BSSBFTUK WITH SWEDISH DESIGN drumming thing where I ASKED TO COME OFF the wikipedia for privacy AND THEY SAID NO!! Jeez. So knock me out then...but I don't think Ellin who clearly knows nothing about musician notability guideline 5 or 6 b or whatever the 2 notable bands thing... Man. Ask Someone for help and they ream you good. I AM Not and never will be a SNOWBALLER & I will probably not be in the wikipedia for too much longer! So unless Ellin decides to change or remove the delete vote and no one else favors keep, Congrats DuffBeerForMe & Pinkbeast you win you clever wiki-ppl yous. Thx for allowing me a say here. Phaedrx (talk) 09:15, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

This is the funniest sh*t ever: Ellin, check my phaedrx.com page, hope yr not offended but even if you are I AM pheadrx and its staying there until I say so. Why? You involved yerself and cluelessly slashed away at my life, my work and me. NOWHERE NEAR SPANKY !!!! Thats the best line I have ever heard - hey you're no spanky!!!! ps spanky wasnt in DBA, BSS, Severna Park, or White Shabbos, or Blanket Statementstein. Spakny wasnt even a musician. Musicians have spearate guidelines from whatever spanky was, child star actor or whatever. HOW DO YOU COMPARE ME TO SPANKY !!! WTF??!?! Phaedrx (talk) 10:57, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Phaedrx&oldid=574949817 is the last version of User:Phaedrx's userpage with a list of admitted socks. Personally, it seems plausible to me that these were a simple misunderstanding of the account creation rules. Pinkbeast (talk) 00:19, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

You are apparently confusing Elaine "Spanky" McFarland with a male child actor from the 1940s. Instead, as you would have learned had you followed the link above, she headed her own group "Spanky and Our Gang" as well as singing the Mama Cass position for years with the The Mamas & the Papas in their revivals after Ms. Cass' death. Therefore she is notable, but not considered notable enough for her own page, which is why her page redirects to "Spanky and Our Gang." I used her as an example of an musical artist with multiple groups and multiple records who is still not considered notable enough to have her own page.

Calling people names here and on your own website[1]] doesn't help your position in this discussion; it diminishes you in the opinion of others - who like myself - had never met or encountered you before. It was you who asked me to contribute, anyone reading my prior entries in AFD would have known what my reply would be. Ellin Beltz (talk) 20:00, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

• Delete - per nom. Notability doesn't appear to be established via WP:RELIABLE. Epic COI. JNW (talk) 12:16, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
• Delete - There is nothing here that supports standalone notability. Quite simply WP:VRS is not being met, never mind WP:MUSICBIO. Walls of text from the subject are not helping either. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 20:28, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
• Delete - Non-notable. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:06, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
• Delete - Non-notable crap!. Davey2010Talk 23:47, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

DD's site: "even crap (thanks 'DAVEY 2010' my life's work is crap" - You're more than welcome, and yes.... yes it is! ...-Davey2010Talk13:13, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

• Delete - for the article to exist, as FreeRangeFrog indicates above, the subject needs to have specific notability as an individual, and the sources used to not so far as I can see establish the required individual notability. John Carter (talk) 00:57, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
• Delete - Fails Musicbio. Vanitybio for an unremarkable musician 78.105.23.161 (talk) 02:25, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
• Delete - The sources only seem to discuss Dennis Donaghy, a former general manager and director of Cairns Taipans, an Australian men's professional basketball team. The Seattle Times and The New Yorker references listed in the article[2] do not mention Dennis Donaghy. There is not enough coverage in reliable sources that are independent of Dennis Donaghy for the Dennis Donaghy topic to be handled as a separate, stand-alone biography page. See WP:GNG and subject-specific guidelines. -- Jreferee (talk) 04:01, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
• Delete does not appear to pass our music guidelines and seems to have COI/self-promotion problems. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 04:55, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
• Delete - per nom. Notability for unremarkable musician not established. -AuthorAuthor (talk) 20:31, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.