Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/David Firth (actor)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was speedy keep. Withdrawn by nominator. No editors currently in favour of deletion. (non-admin closure) Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 18:55, 4 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

David Firth (actor)[edit]

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No significant coverage in independent reliable secondary sources, or much of any coverage for that matter. Throast (talk | contribs) 17:36, 1 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Withdrawn by nominator per several new sources provided that now clearly establish the subject's notability. Throast (talk | contribs) 15:25, 4 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions. Throast (talk | contribs) 17:39, 1 May 2022 (UTC)][reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. Throast (talk | contribs) 17:39, 1 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Actors and filmmakers and Theatre. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 17:56, 1 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. This person's career was mostly prior to the internet. He was most active from about 1966 to 2007. He appeared in a dozen West End productions, including as John Wilkes Booth in Assassins and M. Andre in Phantom of the Opera and for a year in the 3-person revue Side by Side by Sondheim. He started his career with 3 seasons in the Royal Shakespeare Company. He was later in the Royal National Theatre. He appeared extensively on TV, with recurring roles in Drummonds, Wycliffe, Doctors and Casualty. If we look back at newspaper reviews of shows that he appeared in, we would find numerous reviews. Here is a 2003 Playbill article mentioning some of his roles. See also this, this, this, and this -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:05, 1 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Does this amount to significant coverage, though? This and this (profiles on websites of musicals he's appeared in) are not independent of the subject, I'd say. I haven't read any hard-copy reviews of musicals he's appeared in, but I'm sure such reviews are more commonly on the side of trivial mentions when it comes to individual cast members, rather than significant coverage. Throast (talk | contribs) 20:19, 1 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes -- the BroadwayWorld article alone is significant coverage. Moreover, we (I mean you) have not bothered to get the coverage from non-online sources. It is lazy and foolish to delete articles of major actors from pre-internet times simply because we have not put in the work to find the sources. Just use the FENS databases, and you will find dozens of sources with significant coverage. Just search for "David Firth" and the names of each West End show that he has appeared in, and reviews will pop right up. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:27, 1 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

BroadwayWorld.com allows user submissions and edits to bios, and has no corrections/fact-checking policy as far as I can see. So far, this is WP:THEREMUSTBESOURCES. Throast (talk | contribs) 20:45, 1 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You're wrong. BroadwayWorld's editorial board reviews all submissions. It says so right there: "You will receive an email notification when your entry has been approved...." In any case, before trying to delete the entry, why not do the research? You have a long list of the roles he has played, but you haven't looked any of them up, including not even the original reviews for Phantom of the Opera, in which he created a major supporting role in arguably the world's most successful musical in history. WP:INTROTODELETE says: "Remember that deletion is a last resort. ... deletion should not be used as a way to improve an article, or a reaction to a bad article. It is appropriate for articles which cannot be improved." -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:53, 1 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm very well aware of WP:INTROTODELETE. I wouldn't go through the process of creating an AfD without having done some research. I certainly don't appreciate being called "lazy" and "foolish". If you go out of your way to vote keep at AfD, be prepared to be challenged. You're telling me to "just use FENS databases" to find significant coverage, when this what you, who's voted to keep the article, could be doing to substantiate your argument and avoid pointless back-and-forths. Throast (talk | contribs) 21:40, 1 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No, the nominator of an AfD is supposed to think a little bit about whether a person is of encyclopedic importance, and must anticipate being challenged, because deletion is a last resort. Sorry you're annoyed, but I think this AfD is a bad mistake. If this actor is not notable, then 4 million of our 5 million articles are not notable. Obviously, this article was poorly referenced, and some of the references that were originally there have gone dead. A much better path would have been to add some citation needed tags. Also, if you don't want to "back-and-forth", by all means, stop trying to get both the first and last word on your nomination. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:20, 2 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep as per @Ssilvers notices. I wonder if this AFD has come about due to this - https://www.thegamer.com/salad-fingers-david-firth-creator-wikipedia-wiped/ Mark E (talk) 21:55, 1 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep – A quick dip in the online British press archives comes up with numerous detailed mentions of this actor. In the first half-dozen pages of search results I counted 36 separate reviews and articles featuring him in The Stage. He is repeatedly discussed there and in other papers, in a large range of principal roles in the West End and with the Royal Shakespeare Company etc, from Algernon in The Importance, Eisenstein in Die Fledermaus, Sir Joseph Porter in HMS Pinafore to Orlando in As You Like It etc. The BBC's listings show him in a wide range of roles on television and radio. Clearly meets our notability criteria. Tim riley talk 06:32, 2 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. A search shows the following:
- "Around the World", 28 Oct 2013, The Independent, Miranda Kiek, Pg. 46: Review: Firth as Phileas Fogg
- "Lazy charm; The Arts Theatre", 29 September 2001, The Spectator, Sheridan Morley, Pp. 46 48: Review: Firth in Cat on a Hot Tin Roof. (Review also republished in The International Herald Tribune)
- "THEATRE / Sondheim scores a direct hit", 01 Nov 1992, The Independent, Irving Wardle, P 20: Review of Assassins, with Firth as John Wilkes Booth
- "Bravado Mikado with a touch too much fertiliser", 03 Aug 1985, Financial Times, Martin Hoyle, P. XI Review of Firth in The [Metropolitan] Mikado

(I saw him in that. It and he were splendid. Tim riley talk 13:25, 3 May 2022 (UTC))[reply]

TV work also listed at the BFI

Although a low-key actor, he is still notable. 2A00:23C7:2B86:9800:8439:DEA0:C48C:1996 (talk) 09:42, 2 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep as per @Ssilvers comments, which all seem to be wholly valid. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:10, 2 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.