Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dalanbayar Delgermaa

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Missvain (talk) 18:38, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Dalanbayar Delgermaa[edit]

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At first, this sounded impressive enough to be kept as probably notable: a silver medal at the Asian Speed Skating Championships, wow.

The problem is that "second" and "silver medal" also meant "last", as there were only two competitors at that distance, with Delgermaa ending 10 seconds behind the winner. Her times aren't really impressive either.[1]

This is a good example that competing at continental championships isn't always an indicator of excelling internationally or being at or near the top of the sport. Some championships, for whatever reason, get very low participation, with the strongest skaters not present (e.g. at the 1000m the same day, you get 3 Kazakh, 3 Koreans, and one way, way slower Indian skater: but no Chinese or Japanese, which are two of the top countries in women's speed skating[2]).

What is needed is evidence that WP:BIO is met, but I haven't been able to find good sources about her (non-database sources, that is). Fram (talk) 13:45, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Fram (talk) 13:45, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Mongolia-related deletion discussions. Fram (talk) 13:45, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep She was not one of the best speed skater in the world, but she is an important person of the speed skating history of Mongolia. She broke 18 times a senior national record and became four times national champion. Mongolia is getting better and better in speed skating since the 2000s having an official ISU 400 metres speed skating rink and in a previous edition Mongolia won their first medal ever in speed skating at an international Games (Olympic Youth Olympics). Without people like Delgermaa, this wouldn't has happened. Because she was a main sportsperson in Mongolia, it's highly likely she had many coverage in Mongolian sources. However, there are no Mongolian secondary sources online, and also we don't have her name in Mongolian language. If you search for other Mongolian athletes, you couldn't find secondary sources as well. For instance Olympian Tsedenjavyn Lkhamjav (having an article in Mongolian). (I can't find ANY secondary source about speed skating in Mongolia. While the country is one of the few countries in Asia having an 400 metres ice skating rank, hosted international ISU competitions. There must be secondary speed skating sources, but not findable online). SportsOlympic (talk) 14:19, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Then let someone who has access to these hypothetical sources write the article? Speculating that there have to be sources won't help us. Fram (talk) 14:23, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - With hypothetical sources I mean the news sources of Mongolia. Not accessible online. Wikipedia shouldn't create a bias when we can't access the foreign sources, to just ignore/remove all the relevand information we do have. So we should also delete for that reason: List of Mongolian records in speed skating? And Mendbayryn Naratsetseg? That would be ridiculous. SportsOlympic (talk) 14:45, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - We don't know whether the Mongolian media had any attention for their speed skaters or not. That's not creating a bias, that's following WP:V and WP:BIO. You seem to confuse the case of say, a Mongolian editor presenting offline sources which we accept on good faith (which would establish notability), and an editor claiming without evidence and without knowledge of the situation in the country that sources have to exist, which is not something which should simply be accepted. The WP:BURDEN is on you to present sources; it is impossible for me or anyone else to prove that no sources exist. Fram (talk) 14:57, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    - I mean in that case all articles about speed skating in Mongolia should be deleted as we don't have good secondary sources about speed skating in Mongolia. And yes, that would create a bias. SportsOlympic (talk) 15:30, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per SportsOlympic. She's important to her country's role in the sport. oncamera _{(talk page)} 22:14, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Weak delete. All the national-level accomplishments might mean something in Mongolia, but that depends whether speed skating has a following there, and it often does not when the level is so low. Lots of sports are huge in some countries and negligible in many countries, for instance baseball. On the regional (Asian) scene she is clearly non-notable per Fram. Geschichte (talk) 15:21, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep There are no readily available sources, but SportsOlympic makes a good point about the plausible reasons for that lack. There are plenty of records for the competition results. Most importantly to me, her prowess should have nothing to do with keeping an encyclopedic article - if that was the bar, we'd possibly not have an article for Eddie the Eagle.--Concertmusic (talk) 17:17, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: It would be helpful if sources were actually found, rather than simply speculated about.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, power~enwiki (π, ν) 23:06, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Eddie the Eagle completed on the world stage. That's the difference. Geschichte (talk) 07:32, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment:As said above, finding these sources online is impossible, as internet don’t give access to the Mongolian sources of that era. SportsOlympic (talk) 08:10, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment 2:Speed skating is still at a very low level in Mongolia. As we don’t have access to older news sources, we can take a look at the recent sourcing. Almost all main news sources are in the native language (see here). When taking a look at the few English language Mongolian news sources the coverage of speed skating is good, including writing about national championships. At montsame.mn see for instance: here and more examples: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. At the other English speaking main news outlet news.mn has good coverage, three examples: 1, 2, 3. So even while the level is so low in Mongolia: even the main Mongolian news sources are writing about it; unfortunately we don’t have access to the older sources. SportsOlympic (talk) 08:39, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as per SportsOlympic. Priyanjali singh (talk) 13:29, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Missvain (talk) 00:16, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete It is a solid argument above except it's not a valid argument. There is two profile pages and dead link and that are insufficient to determine if the persons even exists. It completely invalidates WP:V and WP:BIO. It is a WP:BLP after all. Machine generated profiles are entirely unsuitable. The best you could probably do here, is to park it in Draft until a suitable expert in the language can do a thorough search. But at the moment the argument for keep hasn't been made. What will happen is it will remain in a broken state. scope_creep^Talk 14:15, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Reasoning is not correct: "There is two profile pages and dead link and that are insufficient to determine if the persons even exists." --> (1) there are no dead links and (2) enough sources that shows she exists. SportsOlympic (talk) 14:35, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Missvain (talk) 16:12, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - this completely fails WP:BASIC and WP:GNG; not one source has been brought forward showing in-depth coverage Spiderone 16:41, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Spiderone 16:41, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Reply and comment @Spiderone: Why adding the word “completely”? Did you read my reasoning above that the Mongolian sources of that era are not available online; but showed it’s highly likely these sources exist. To demonstrate this further I added a non-Asian sources writing about her a source meeting the GNG guideline. If Europe is writing about Mongolian speed skating; much more sources exist in Mongolia and/or Mongolian. SportsOlympic (talk) 19:56, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I would expect to see more in depth coverage in a biographical article, for example, details about how she got into the sport, personal life, sports technique, influence on others; generally, brief mentions and profile pages in database websites don't enable someone to meet GNG and I don't see why this article should be exempt Spiderone 20:11, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Reply and comment @Spiderone: see three sources I found in Mongolian. 1 and 2 and 3; so meeting GNG. SportsOlympic (talk) 20:18, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - passes WP:BASIC per sources 2 and 3 (and possibly 1 as well) from the 3 listed in the comment just above this Spiderone 20:39, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep passes WP:Basic. Sufficient sources have established the subject's importance in Mongolian sport.Road to Oblivion (talk) 20:18, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.