Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Conrad Bangkok

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. There is some coverage, but the community is divided on how to judge it. Pax:Vobiscum (talk) 12:23, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Conrad Bangkok[edit]

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This hotel is WP:Run-of-the-mill and fails WP:NBUILD and WP:GNG Wikiwriter700 (talk) 19:26, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Thailand-related deletion discussions. Spiderone 21:20, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Companies-related deletion discussions. Spiderone 21:20, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Architecture-related deletion discussions. Spiderone 21:20, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete a non-notable run-of-the-mill hotel.John Pack Lambert (talk) 15:25, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: The optimal course of action might be to re-scope and rename China Resources Tower to All Seasons Place, and merge/redirect the hotel there. --Paul_012 (talk) 13:26, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.

Yeager, John (2008-10-05). "Bangkok joins the powerhouse". The Daily Telegraph. Archived from the original on 2020-11-16. Retrieved 2020-11-16.

Fails WP:ORGIND, WP:CORPDEPTH. Advertisement. Writer is selling the hotel.

Feinstein, Paul. "Fodor's Expert Review: Conrad Bangkok". Fodor's. Archived from the original on 2020-11-16. Retrieved 2020-11-16.

Generic listing in Fodor's, a trade publication. No indication of notability. Fails WP:CORPDEPTH. simple listings or compilations, such as: of product or service offerings

Bright, Craig (2019-06-06). "Hotel review: Conrad Bangkok". Business Traveller. Archived from the original on 2020-11-16. Retrieved 2020-11-16.

Generic listing. No indication of notability. Fails WP:CORPDEPTH. simple listings or compilations, such as: of product or service offerings

Nayer, Anjeeta (2013-04-26). "Review: Conrad Bangkok Hotel". Macaron Magazine. Archived from the original on 2020-11-16. Retrieved 2020-11-16.

Generic listing, a review No indication of notability. Fails WP:CORPDEPTH. simple listings or compilations, such as: of product or service offerings

Jirasakunthai, Choosak (2003-01-10). "Conrad kicks off with superhero stunt". The Nation. Archived from the original on 2020-11-16. Retrieved 2020-11-16.

Affiliated content from or by the Telegraph, indicating it is press-release, or some form of churnalism. Fails WP:SIRS.

Rungfapaisarn, Kwanchai; Lueng-uthai, Patcharee (2006-10-09). "Conrad revamps for executives". The Nation. Archived from the original on 2020-11-16. Retrieved 2020-11-16.

Fails WP:ORGIND. General manager Gregory J Meadows said the hotel had opened two more executive floors last month, adding 40 executive rooms to bring the total to around 200

Long, Rachel (November 2003). "Conrad Bangkok Hotel: 2003 gold key finalist guestroom". Hospitality Design. Vol. 25, no. 8.
Mekloy, Pongpet (2019-07-25). "Conrad Bangkok". Bangkok Post. Archived from the original on 2020-11-16. Retrieved 2020-11-16.

Straight press-release. Fails WP:DEL14, WP:SIRS, WP:NOTADVERTISING.

Sritama, Suchat (2006-03-09). "Conrad Phuket opens in '07". The Nation. Archived from the original on 2020-11-16. Retrieved 2020-11-16.

Fails WP:ORGIND. A press-release. Conrad Bangkok general manager Gregory Meadows said yesterday the resort would cater to the high-end leisure market, attracting guests from Western and wealthy Asian countries.

Jirasakunthai, Choosak (2003-11-14). "Conrad seeks to lure diners". The Nation. Archived from the original on 2020-11-16. Retrieved 2020-11-16.

Fails WP:ORGIND A press-release Gregory J Meadows, general manager of Conrad Bangkok, said the hotel was severely affected by the Sars scare just after it opened early in the year. scope_creep^Talk 11:19, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sources with quotes

Yeager, John (2008-10-05). "Bangkok joins the powerhouse". The Daily Telegraph. Archived from the original on 2020-11-16. Retrieved 2020-11-16.
The article notes:
There's a broad selection of mid-range lodgings and, if the budget will stand it, some rather fine high-end establishments.
Among the latter is the Conrad Bangkok, a relatively recent addition to the city's phalanx of five-star properties.
Since the Conrad opened in 2003, around 80 per cent of its customers have been business types, but it's keen to promote its virtues to regular folks, too. And with ample reason, because this is a seriously good place to stay.
The Conrad describes itself as "a true 21st-century hotel ... with cutting-edge design and unparalleled service". That sounds like a standard piece of marketing puff, but it's absolutely accurate -- particularly the service part.
Architecturally, the Conrad is quite unlike the standard tower or upright slab. Its unusual octagonal footprint allows rooms of differing shapes and provides a variety of angles, aspects and views.
...
There's plenty more to like about this hotel. Judging by a sensational meal at its Japanese restaurant, the unusually named Drinking Tea Eating Rice, the food is terrific; the treatments at the Seasons Spa are out of this world; and there are nice touches such as a choice of eight types of pillow for people who are picky about such things.
If physical exertion is on the program, there are floodlit tennis courts for night owls, a 24-hour gym for insomniacs and even a rooftop jogging track.
The Conrad has a fleet of Mercedes-Benz limousines in which passengers can smarten up with a refresher towel and a glass of iced water before settling back with the morning paper or watching the news updates on CNN while receiving a back massage from the seat.
Feinstein, Paul. "Fodor's Expert Review: Conrad Bangkok". Fodor's. Archived from the original on 2020-11-16. Retrieved 2020-11-16.
The review notes:
Surrounded by embassies and attached to a massive shopping and condominium complex, the Conrad is a stunning, high-end property that prides itself on incredible service and endless amenities. Ideal for families and business travelers alike, the hotel is a polished gem with great restaurants, a top of the line spa, and is in a safe and upscale location.
...
Though it’s large, this upscale and elegant property still devotes themselves to personalized service. The hotel is attached to a high-end shopping complex and also sports two of the best restaurants in the city. A resort pool is great for kids and activities abound with tennis courts, fitness classes, and a running track. Not near public transit, the hotel provides a shuttle to the closest station. Clean, safe, and delightful, the Conrad hits on all notes and is great for business and recreation alike.
Bright, Craig (2019-06-06). "Hotel review: Conrad Bangkok". Business Traveller. Archived from the original on 2020-11-16. Retrieved 2020-11-16.
The review notes:
Verdict

The hotel’s renovation has certainly given the Conrad Bangkok a fresh, contemporary facelift that helps bring it up to standard with the many other new properties opening their doors around the city. As is common with newly renovated hotels, I discovered a couple of very minor teething problems that could do with being ironed out – namely, the plug sockets that needed to be broken in, as well as the somewhat recalcitrant in-room sensors – but I’m sure these issues will be addressed promptly and they didn’t really negatively impact my stay. The rooms are sleek and sizeable – a valuable find in any Asian capital – and the interesting mix of urban and resort styles gives the property a professional yet relaxing atmosphere overall.
Nayer, Anjeeta (2013-04-26). "Review: Conrad Bangkok Hotel". Macaron Magazine. Archived from the original on 2020-11-16. Retrieved 2020-11-16.
The article notes:
The Conrad Bangkok is situated in Bangkok’s Ploenchit district, a modern though relatively tranquil enclave of the city and is home to tall office towers, consulates and embassies and the lush Lumpini Park. The hotel extends over two towering edifices, one which hosts the hotel and the other features the Conrad Residences for long-term stays. For our stay at the Conrad, we had chosen king-size room with an upgrade to the executive floor. We were awarded a room on high floor, which afforded stunning views of the Bangkok cityscape.
The room was very spacious and elegantly adorned in soothing, muted colors and anointed with tasteful Thai-style decorative accents. As is the fashion nowadays, the bath area of the room in the Conrad is separated from the sleep area by a transparent glass wall. An interesting if not arresting design concept, though if you rather have privacy, the view can be easily obliterated by way of a heavy silk drape which can be drawn with the flick of a switch.
Jirasakunthai, Choosak (2003-01-10). "Conrad kicks off with superhero stunt". The Nation. Archived from the original on 2020-11-16. Retrieved 2020-11-16.
The article notes:
The capital's newest hotel, the Conrad Bangkok, has made its debut with a unique opening that featured 10 "Spidermen" scaling its walls.
General manager Gregory Meadows said the joint venture between the M Thai Group and the China Resort Co wanted to make the public aware that the hotel was different from others in Bangkok.
The 392-room new arrival on Wireless Road is set to emerge as a serious contender to the nearby hotel Plaza Athenee.
...
Among the hotel's unique touches are its interior - in modern Thai style - and the staff uniforms, for which the hotel has eschewed the cliched traditional Thai look.
...
The Conrad Bangkok is the third Conrad hotel to open in Asia, after Hong Kong and Singapore, and a fourth - the Conrad Metropolitan - will open later this year on Sathorn Road.
Rungfapaisarn, Kwanchai; Lueng-uthai, Patcharee (2006-10-09). "Conrad revamps for executives". The Nation. Archived from the original on 2020-11-16. Retrieved 2020-11-16.
The article notes:
After a slight drop in its occupancy rate this year as a result of "unfavourable conditions", the Conrad Bangkok hotel expects to benefit from a rise in average daily room rates resulting from its expanded and renovated executive floors.
...
The renovation features a bigger and more stylish lounge, and new guestrooms and suites with a stunning array of hi-tech toys. These include 32-inch flat-screen LCD televisions, iPod docking stations, DVD players and a whopping 12Mbps in-room high-speed broadband Internet access.
...
Earlier, the hotel initiated a limousine service that it says is "inspired by individuality". Each limousine is named for one of the magical creatures of Thai mythology to ensure safety and security.
Long, Rachel (November 2003). "Conrad Bangkok Hotel: 2003 gold key finalist guestroom". Hospitality Design. Vol. 25, no. 8.
The article notes:
Think Thai silk, glowing teak, and carved timber platform beds. In the Conrad Bangkok Hotel guestrooms, there's no mistaking this is Thailand, where a sort of sensible elegance and use of local materials can clearly create a sense of place.
In outfitting the architectural shell of a 375-key guest tower constructed several years ago but never finished, the Singapore design team of Dallas-based Wilson & Associates aimed for local flair. "Thailand has a very rich culture, and typical Thai architecture and style is apparent everywhere you go in Bangkok," says design director Michael Fiebrich. "What we wanted to do was borrow on that strong influence but express it in a more contemporary way to create something with a distinct regional flavor, as well as an international twist."
Mekloy, Pongpet (2019-07-25). "Conrad Bangkok". Bangkok Post. Archived from the original on 2020-11-16. Retrieved 2020-11-16.
The article notes:
The prime area between Wireless Road and Soi Ruamrudee is home to several upscale hotels. Keeping up with the steep competition, Conrad Bangkok, a veteran in the district, boasts recently refurbished guest accommodations and facilities. The facelifted interior subtly but beautifully blends Thai elegance with modern feel and practicality.
Sritama, Suchat (2006-03-09). "Conrad Phuket opens in '07". The Nation. Archived from the original on 2020-11-16. Retrieved 2020-11-16.
The article notes:
It follows the Conrad Bangkok, which has been open for more than three years. The resort will be its sixth in Asia after Hong Kong, Singapore, Tokyo and Bali.
...
Meadows said Conrad Bangkok is the first hotel in Bangkok, even the world, to provide a luxury limousine service to its guests.
Conrad Bangkok is running 95 per cent full and is expected to be 85-per-cent occupied for the entire year, the same as last year. Almost all its guests are businessmen from Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan and the US.
Jirasakunthai, Choosak (2003-11-14). "Conrad seeks to lure diners". The Nation. Archived from the original on 2020-11-16. Retrieved 2020-11-16.
The article notes:
The Conrad Bangkok is running an aggressive marketing campaign for this year's festive season, offering its restaurant customers the chance to win flights overseas and four nights at one of the chain's top-end hotels.
...
Conrad's new set lunch is considerably cheaper than buffet lunches at many other luxury hotels, which generally cost more than Bt500 per person.
...
Conrad is one of many new luxury hotels in Bangkok.

There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Conrad Bangkok to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".

Cunard (talk) 09:54, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Non-notable hotel. Native advertisement. Sources presented fails WP:CORPDEPTH, WP:SIRS, WP:DEL4, and per WP:DEL14, WP:NOTDIR. scope_creep^Talk 11:06, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 08:11, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment There is already a Conrad hotel article. scope_creep^Talk 10:09, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep WP:Run-of-the-mill is an essay and "Essays have no official status, and do not speak for the Wikipedia community". Andrew🐉(talk) 11:44, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep highly notable hotel as ably demonstrated by Cunard. The "rebutals" by scope_creep seem entirely un-persuasive, for example looking at the no 1 source by Yeager , there's no clear evidence to label the source an advertisement. It says "The writer was a guest of the ConradBangkok." - if the hotel made a good impression on the author, it's good honest writing to reflect that. FeydHuxtable (talk) 12:02, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@FeydHuxtable: It is one of 39 in the series. Please describe to me how it is notable, particularly since you completely ignoring the references? If he was a guest then he a WP:COI and reference isn't a toss. scope_creep^Talk 12:13, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't matter if it's one of series of 39,000 , if a particular hotel receives "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject", which as per Cunnard is the case here, then it's notable. This isn't something I'd like to get into a long discussion about - if you need further explanation, please see WP:GNG FeydHuxtable (talk) 12:20, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Scope creep: (I'm presuming it's you that wrote it, but per WP:TPO it's best to keep what you said and what Cunard said separate, not "interleaving") what is the evidence you have for your review of the Daily Telegraph source: Fails WP:ORGIND, WP:CORPDEPTH. Advertisement. Writer is selling the hotel. Is the author connected to the hotel? Are you saying that the material is entirely copied from a press release you've seen? Are you saying there's no "original and independent opinion, analysis, investigation, and fact-checking that are" attributable to the author/Telegraph? — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 16:32, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Reliable sources give it significant coverage. You get reviewed in a magazine, then your hotel is notable. This isn't just local coverage, and they don't review everything. Dream Focus 16:52, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
~~Weak keep~~ The standard for operating hotels needs to be WP:NORG and I think this just barely scrapes by with the articles from the Nation. I also want to strongly discourage the use of travel blogs and reviews as reliable sources, especially in this day in age where magazines and hotels typically have relationships - they aren't something we'd stand for when we're editing any sort of normal article so they shouldn't be used to prove notability. I'm concerned the article is a bit too promotional as it stands and I understand why it was brought to AfD, but between the Nation articles and the fact there's almost certainly neutral Thai coverage the hotel didn't pay for or encourage, there's enough coverage for a non-promotional, neutral article to be written. SportingFlyer T·C 21:38, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Weak delete I assumed there would be Thai press, but after spending a decent amount of time on a before search, I can't find anything. I also don't understand Thai, so I'm not going to be very strong with the deletion, but my previous vote was on the assumption Thai language media would be readily available to pass WP:NORG and I haven't been able to find anything. Will take another look if someone does better. I also strongly do not believe that review books lend any notability whatsoever to hotels - their job is to document the hotel's existence, and often times they aren't independent of the source. I've written or worked on a number of hotel articles, and a truly notable hotel will have lots of information written about it other than reviews. SportingFlyer T·C 07:48, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Great pile on and with no analysis. Has NOTDIR, WP:DEL4, WP:DEL14 and WP:NCORP magically dissapeared. There is 39 of these hotels, with another eight in the pipeline, and they are identical for the most part. Looking at it from a purely "encyclopedic content" perspective, each article will be a general listing of the same information, in the same format, consisting of low-quality location information, in a directory like structure, managed by UPE. How-to find it, just like Google. scope_creep^Talk 00:39, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Great pile on and with no analysis - I'm leaning weak delete here, but I'm concerned about the quality of your arguments, too. Simply saying something is problematic per "ORGIND" without providing evidence isn't actually better than the handwaves to GNG, etc.. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 00:42, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Either each and any Hilton hotel is notable by the simple fact of being Hilton branded. Or you have to prove that this one is notable among the other Hiltons. Nobody has argued along the first line, while a specific notability is not proven by the 'references' given. Pldx1 (talk) 09:07, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. No good sources found, analysis above has demonstrated the current sources are low quality. C'mon, people, WP:NOTYELLOWPAGES. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:12, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NOTYELLOWPAGES just says that "Contact information such as phone numbers, fax numbers and e-mail addresses is not encyclopedic." As the page doesn't contain such data, the policy is irrelevant. Andrew🐉(talk) 16:24, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Article passes the WP:GNG and WP:NORG. It's short and can be shortened so merge could be discussed. For merge, my concern would be that the apparent merge candidate is at a too high level to contain this. Delete conflicts with our standards. WP will be worse off without the article's information. gidonb (talk) 14:39, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Please note that Scope Creep in a comment provides an WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument. If this line of thought is irrelevant for the purpose keep argumentation, it should be irrelevant also for delete argumentation! gidonb (talk) 14:42, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Saying that WP will be worse off without the precious knowledge that Conrad Bangkok also has a gym, a spa, a swimming pool, a tennis court and a rooftop jogging track rather appears as a joke from a delete voter!. Moreover N-O-R-G, one of the famous letter soup used here, seems to say something about inheritance. Are you sure to be a keep voter! ? Pldx1 (talk) 16:10, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That text needs to be removed as promotional, I don't think anyone is arguing for keeping that. SportingFlyer T·C 18:35, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Pldx1's statement is a typical red herring argument. Totally irrelevant and indicative of the weakness of the case for deletion. I said that WP will be worse off without the article's information. Not that all information is relevant. On the contrary. I explicitly said that the article can be shortened. The comment above is a total reversal of my opinion and should be discounted as such. Also, the comment about letter soup is nonsense. Please write something because you have something to add, not because you can't help yourself. gidonb (talk) 18:28, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. The sources provided by Cunard are more than sufficient to establish notability per WP:ORG and most certainly per WP:GNG. The objections to Cunard's sources are unconvincing. E.g. the first source, [1] provides in-depth non-perfunctory review of the hotel. Yes, the review is quite complimemtary, but there is no evidence that the author from The Daily Telegraph should be regarded as non-independent. The article was published in the Features section of the paper. I see no reason why we are supposed to treat this source as "advertisement" rather than as a bona fide independent source; at least no such reason has been offered. Nsk92 (talk) 01:20, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. How do you read * The writer was a guest of theConradBangkok in this complimentary piece of advertisement?. How many herrings of various kinds have been offered at the 6 restaurants and lounges at the hotel including KiSara restaurant which serves authentic Japanese cuisine and Liu restaurant which offers traditional Chinese food to produce such a great Feature ? Pldx1 (talk) 11:19, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - the sources provided here are enough to write a policy compliant article. At least enough for the entry to exist. Maybe it should be merged to a list of hotels (stand alone or as part of the article on the city) but that can be decided at article talk pages. Like a book, the sources for an article about a hotel will include reviews of the hotel, and reviews like Fodors are legit. Of course the reviewer would have to stay at the hotel to do the review. (Although it should be blind.) On balance, I think the sources satisfy GNG. Le v¡v ich 17:02, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Hi @Rhododendrites: Bangkok joins the powerhouse and you don't think it is affiliate news that has the exact article on another newspaper on the list above. You wonder why I commented in the middle of Cunard comments, because it looks kind of filibuster to stop folk discussing the article. The wilful ignorance show here regarding WP:NCORP and WP:NOTDIR is worrying. More so because this is one of 38 in the Conrad range, with the exact same profile in Fodor's that the rest have, virtually the same as this profile article. The Conrad range is part of the 6000 odd owned by Hilton. There is virtually nothing you can say about it, except that it is big. It fails WP:NCORP with trivial coverage that would expect of a big hotel. Not a single fact makes it stand amongst its mates. scope_creep^Talk 03:11, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

and you don't think it is affiliate news that has the exact article on another newspaper on the list above - I don't know what this means. If another source picked up this story, that's fine -- it counts as one. I was asking for justification it's an ORGIND problem. Inline responses are typically frowned upon, because it's confusing. If Cunard is doing something wrong, that can be dealt with without confusing the text for the readers. Meh. I'm not terribly interested in debating this one. It seems like a weak delete, but I'm concerned about people throwing around ORGIND and waving away sources without ORGIND actually being a problem. No need for further reply here, I suppose. I'll bring it back up if I see one worth arguing over. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 03:17, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

From now on I will do separate comments, if that is helpful. scope_creep^Talk 14:39, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Merge and redirect to Conrad Hotels. There's some coverage suggesting notability, but not enough for a standalone article. I suggest bundling the info about the Conrad properties into Conrad Hotels. TimTempleton ^(talk) ^(cont) 21:01, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep agree with User:Nsk92's opinion. Please be careful WP:IDONTLIKE here. VocalIndia (talk) 17:40, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Keep The hotel has been mentioned though as an "alternative state quarantine (ASQ)" facility by the Thai govt in the following articles 1, 2 and 3 (in Thai). — Emperork (talk) 23:13, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.