Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ciro Ayala

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. The single-purpose accounts seem unaware of the standards of reliable sourcing on Wikipedia, which is particularly important for bios. Fences&Windows 00:32, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ciro Ayala[edit]

Ciro Ayala (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)
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Along with Provoke Films (listed for AfD here) part of an apparent promotional/advertising push for this individual from one or two editors. While there is some claim of notability in the way of an award nomination (nomination does not list this individual, however), the majority of the claims in the article are not backed up by reliable sources, and what sources are given only offer passing or minor mentions, or are primary sources connected to the subject of the article. TheRealFennShysa (talk) 17:10, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Interesting... a Google search on "Blue Fear" "Ciro Ayala" brings back only six results. A search on "Blue Fear" Ayala brings up 93, but maybe only a quarter of those appear to reference the video. I'm sorry, the unsupported word of an apparent single purpose account doesn't trump facts. TheRealFennShysa (talk) 19:50, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Just by doing a simple research on Blue Fear song, and you will get why the music video has notability in Trance Music audience. I still considered that this your point of view and claims that there is no notability in any of the links, is strictly personal, and truly a fault of respect to this great new artist and his career, whom you don't know but lots of people has been already following him since 2002. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Greenjeans60 (talk • contribs) 20:11, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - The one thing that you're missing here is that "Blue Fear" is not the subject of discussion here - searching on only it doesn't have any bearing on this discussion. Unfortunately, there is not a lot in the way of reliable, indepenent significant coverage about Ayala - most mentions of the video don't even mention him. You keep saying that the notability is there based on things like the links or the video (which not only doesn't have an article, but isn't even mentioned on Armin van Buuren's page), but according to Wikipedia standards, that isn't the case. Whether I know or respect the guy doesn't enter into it - I'm looking at this impartially, without any kind of personal bias - unlike the one which you've already admitted. TheRealFennShysa (talk) 20:33, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Firstly, I first wrote the wikipedia article about Ciro Ayala film director, after checking that there was no article at that time about him, who is very well recognized in Asia, from previous tv commercials that he directed. Secondly, I don't know the Ciro Ayala personally and never had the chance to meet him, but I joined his Fans Club this year (AFTER having wrote this article). Thirdly, I am crazy or what, but there is an article about Blue Fear music video, where Ciro Ayala explained the plot and visual concept of the video, which is POSTED on Armin Van Buuren's Official Website [ http://www.arminvanbuuren.com/news/264/ link]. That music video was released this year and is currently on Armin Van Buuren's music videos official collection. Fourthly, about that Blue Fear is not the subject of discussion: I totally agree but I wasn't the one who used the "GOOGLE SEARCH" concept, as a way to check if a person has notability or not. I just replied to your claim about how many results brings a Google Search on Blue Fear Ayala, which, by the way, is the wrong way to search the notability of a person. Greenjeans60 (talk) 21:11, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Really? Considered a reliable source by whom? TheRealFennShysa (talk) 17:41, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I will reply with your same question: You considered all the links and resources as "without notability", Really? By Whom?
The artist Armin van Buuren is very well known, same about his works. Just checked his Official Website again, and it's true, the music video for the song Blue Fear has been directed by Ciro Ayala (entitled as "music video and film director"). There is an article where the director is explaining the concept behind the music video, at Armin van Buuren's official website. And that's a fact and considered as a reliable source, due that the music video is inside Armin van Buuren's Music Video Collection from 1997 to 2009.Daviderudit (talk) 18:00, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Now you're just putting words in my mouth. I never said that all the links were "without notability" - I'll repost it so you can actually read it - the majority of the claims in the article are not backed up by reliable sources, and what sources are given only offer passing or minor mentions, or are primary sources connected to the subject of the article. The difference here is that we need verifiable and reliable independent/third-party sources. Go look up the guidelines as to what's needed. Armin van Buuren's site (along with this link in particular that you keep using) falls specifically into the category of sites that are "primary sources connected to the subject of the article." Neither you or your partner have shown any significant coverage from independent sources about this individual. TheRealFennShysa (talk) 18:16, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I think TheRealFennShysa doesn't remember his own words: [ http://www.arminvanbuuren.com/news/264/ ]: "doesn't convey any notability at all - it simply lists Ayala as the director". Now, seems that an article posted from the official site of a very well known artist, talking about the behind the scenes of his music video, and providing information about the plot of it, doesn't convey any notability for this person.
Because I was the person who wrote the article BASED on the wikipedia guidelines that you mention, I will response one by one the criteria and requirements needed when writing this article, 8 months ago:
I. "A person is presumed to be notable if he or she has been the subject of published[3] secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent,[4] and independent of the subject": The [ http://digitalcontentproducer.com/reel-exchange/contentproducer/ciroayala/ link] is a secondary source, reliable by the fact that it's a print published American film magazine specialized in Independent Filmmakers from all over the world. That article has a bio about Ciro Ayala, which was published in August 27 2007. The article has been written and copyrighted by Millimeter Magazine.
II. "If the depth of coverage is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be needed to prove notability": The amount of links provided shows the existence of the music videos, and 2 of them (FACES and BLUE FEAR) have articles from independent sources that clarified they were directed by Ciro Ayala, produced by Liu Ming Fei, and Provoke Films.
III. [ WP:ANYBIO ] : Point 1: The person, Ciro AYaa, has received 1 AVIMA Awards nomination for the music video Think About You in early 2009, in the category Most Mind Blowing Music Video. There is a direct link to the AVIMA awards nominees link, and the music video appears on Provoke Films Official Website with all the relevant information about the Credits and Behind The Scenes. The [ http://trainspottr.com/nosa-recordings-presents-think-about-you-the-music-video/2048 ] also provides information about the Director, Artist, Record Company and Film Producer Company.
IV. [ WP:ANYBIO ] : Point 2: The Music Video BLUE FEAR for Armin van Buuren, enters in this category, and has enduring historical record in "Trance Music" field. And all the sources and links provided clearly shows that.
V. [ WP:ARTIST ] : Point 3: Ciro Ayala has a significant and well-known work in TV Commercials in Asia and music videos for European artist, which have been the subject of multiple independent reviews. The Music Videos links (specially [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlD0adpJ8kg ] where you can see the Name of the Director at the beginning of the video, and is published at the Official Channel of the music artist, [Andy Moor] who was nominated for a Grammy Award in December 2008 ) clearly validate this point. Also, this music video has been broadcasted on MTV Netherlands in August 2009. Most of Ciro Ayala's works have been broadcasted on European and China/Taiwan TV Stations.
And Finally, if You really follow the Wikipedia Guidelines, you should then reply me my previous question about How can improve the article if you still consider it not proper for wikipedia. Greenjeans60 (talk) 19:05, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If you really want to improve this article, you *really* need to takea serious (instead of a reactionary) look at finding better sources. Simply mentioning someone in an article, without any further exposition or follow-up, the the very definition of a trivial mention. The Armin van Buuren link simply mentions Ayala was the director - as you say, the rest of the link is about the video itself, with the ARTIST talking about the making of the video - Ayala is never mentioned again. As to your Point I, this link appears to be nothing more than an online resume listing as part of the ReelExchange site - there's nothing to corroborate your claim that this was actually published in a physical magazine - in fact, the datestamp on the link points to it being an online listing only. Point II - no one's claiming he didn't direct any of these videos. Just because he's done some work doesn't actomatically make him notable. Point III - the nomination is not in his name. Your trainspottr.com link again only mentions him in passing, therefore a trivial mention. Point IV - the "Blue Fear" video is not the subject of this discussion, and whether your claim of "enduring historical record" is true or not doesn't matter in regards to Ayala himself. Point V: You keep claiming Ayala himself has been the "subject of multiple independent reviews" - yet you haven't show any. The YouTube link, again, only mentions him in passing. There's no independent critical review there of Ayala himself - it's a primary source. TV broadcasts, again, only would apply to the status of the videos themselves - Ayala does not inherit any notablity simply because something he worked on was broadcast.
What you need to understand, and I'm going to say this one time, is that this debate is not about trying to claim that he's not done any of the work that you obviously are a fan of. However, that does not automatically confer any notability on the guy. You have failed to provide even one actual independent item that goes into any detail about Ayala himself, and/or why he himself is important. His work, maybe. He himself? Not so much... TheRealFennShysa (talk) 20:20, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Again, and this is really getting boring: The Armin Van Buuren Link where he mentions Ayala was the director, the one who is talkin about the making of the video is Ayala himself, not the musician. Ayala is describing the concept of the music video, that's why he won't mention himself again, because he is the one describing the video.

You are saying that I fail to provide an item that goes into any detail about himself, and that's why the link to Taiwan's International Radio Station Interview, has been overpassed by you. It was broadcasted almost a year ago, and it goes into detail on Ayala's Bio and recognition overseas. Secondly, since when an artist is more important than his works? But his works would never exist if he didn't create it. That's the reason, why, when writing the article, lots of wikipedia moderators helped me on providing the right way to write the article. And at that time, they all approved the inclusion of the article on wikipedia. But suddenly, I hope without any personal agenda, both Provoke Films and Ciro Ayala are nominated for deletion, with the claim that there are "not enough" links or references to sustain it for notability... So, my question is: Why suddenly, after almost a year of having wrote the article, nothing worth based on someones opinion? Greenjeans60 (talk) 20:49, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete - lack of independent reliable sources sufficient to establish notability. MikeWazowski (talk) 04:45, 18 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Below I described the clearly "sufficient sources" needed to establish notability:
I. "A person is presumed to be notable if he or she has been the subject of published[3] secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent,[4] and independent of the subject": The [ http://digitalcontentproducer.com/reel-exchange/contentproducer/ciroayala/ link] is a secondary source, reliable by the fact that it's a print published American film magazine specialized in Independent Filmmakers from all over the world. That article has a bio about Ciro Ayala, which was published in August 27 2007. The article has been written and copyrighted by Millimeter Magazine.
II. "If the depth of coverage is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be needed to prove notability": The amount of links provided shows the existence of the music videos, and 2 of them (FACES and BLUE FEAR) have articles from independent sources that clarified they were directed by Ciro Ayala, produced by Liu Ming Fei, and Provoke Films.
III. [ WP:ANYBIO ] : Point 1: The person, Ciro AYaa, has received 1 AVIMA Awards nomination for the music video Think About You in early 2009, in the category Most Mind Blowing Music Video. There is a direct link to the AVIMA awards nominees link, and the music video appears on Provoke Films Official Website with all the relevant information about the Credits and Behind The Scenes. The [ http://trainspottr.com/nosa-recordings-presents-think-about-you-the-music-video/2048 ] also provides information about the Director, Artist, Record Company and Film Producer Company.
IV. [ WP:ANYBIO ] : Point 2: The Music Video BLUE FEAR for Armin van Buuren, enters in this category, and has enduring historical record in "Trance Music" field. And all the sources and links provided clearly shows that.
V. [ WP:ARTIST ] : Point 3: Ciro Ayala has a significant and well-known work in TV Commercials in Asia and music videos for European artist, which have been the subject of multiple independent reviews. The Music Videos links (specially [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlD0adpJ8kg ] where you can see the Name of the Director at the beginning of the video, and is published at the Official Channel of the music artist, [Andy Moor] who was nominated for a Grammy Award in December 2008 ) clearly validate this point. Also, this music video has been broadcasted on MTV Netherlands in August 2009. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Greenjeans60 (talk • contribs) 15:10, 18 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete a not particularly interesting individual person with a job. that job gets a little attention, but not enough to care about long term (as yet demonstrated, the future might change). SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
  • Keep his works are well known in China since (around) 3 years ago. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Matiasjuy (talk • contribs) 22:13, 19 December 2009 (UTC) — Matiasjuy (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
  • Comment The more that Single Purpose Accounts waffle and insult established Wikipedia editors who have a good varied history of editing, the more I think 'delete' before I even check the facts. To all new users (or new accounts) posting here: This is not a voting procedure like an election. Vast numbers of 'keeps' by new or anonymous accounts will do no good whatever unless you bring something solid. The rules for notability here might not be what you are used to at home. However, they ARE the rules here, so listen to the more established people who know them. I'll have a look at this myself tomorrow, but in the meantime, read the relevant policies, and if you can't find them, ask. Peridon (talk) 22:44, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Coffee // have a cup // ark // 09:14, 22 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: For what it's worth, The Reel-Exchange article, did appear in the October 2007 issue of Digital Content Producer. However, I would be wary of considering it a reliable source, even if its content amounted to enough to establish notability. The page on which Ayala's paragraph appears has a lead which reads: "Want to be a part of Reel-Exchange and its growing community of global collaborators? For the free trial offer email R337-3x[|-|a//63AT...dotcom or visit reel-exchange(dot)com and click on the register link." I searched for "reel-exchange" in the same database that I found Ayala in, and in an article entitled "Job Search," found this: "Reel-exchange allows members to post profiles and up to four sample reels. We now have member from 76 countries and every state in the nation....The service works for people looking to find collaborators, employers, employees, or contractors." Sounds to me like the content was self-created, and not third-party at all. Some jerk on the Internet (talk) 16:15, 22 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Arbitrarily0 (talk) 20:13, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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