Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chiman Singh

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Black Kite (talk) 23:11, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Chiman Singh

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Chiman Singh (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Doesn't meet the WP:SOLDIER, as the MVC is a second tier award and is awarded only once to the subject. Zoodino (talk) 07:48, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Zoodino (talk) 07:48, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. Zoodino (talk) 07:48, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

• Delete fails WP:SOLDIER and WP:GNG. Mztourist (talk) 09:17, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
• Strong keep The source states, he is the only Sailor in the Indian Navy to have been conferred with the Maha Vir Chakra – And also the recipient of Friends of Liberation War Honour by the President Bangladesh (awarded by a foreign country). [1], A navy's training facility has also been named after the subject [2], [3] TheBirdsShedTears (talk) 09:25, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

The Liberation War Honour have also been conferred upon Atal Bihari Vajpayee, which indicates the award is one of the prestigious awards of Bangladesh. [4]. (This was useful to me to mention this here because most of the Asian countries lacks Wikipedia articles, particularly awards, honours etc. or the existing articles are not well developed that could provide straightforward information). TheBirdsShedTears (talk) 09:41, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

@TheBirdsShedTears:, Correcting some of the statements you mentioned.

• "he is the only Sailor in the Indian Navy to have been conferred with the Maha Vir Chakra" - According to official GOI website (https://gallantryawards.gov.in/awardees-0), there are 9 such awardees from Navy.
• Atal Bihari Vajpayee was awarded Bangladesh Liberation War Honour (which were awarded to 13 heads of state and govermnets), whereas the subject was awarded Friends of Liberation War Honour conferred to individuals, six organisations and Mitra Bahini. The individuals include 257 Indians, 88 Americans, 41 Pakistanis, 39 Britons, 9 Russians, 18 Nepalese, 16 French and 18 Japanese. (mentioned at Awards and decorations of the Bangladesh Liberation War). Both are different awards.
• https://www.indiannavy.nic.in/content/new-diving-facility-honour-naval-war-hero-diving-school-kochi states that a new facility (block) is inaugrated in the already existing diving school in the subject's name. (not the complete school)

Zoodino (talk) 17:36, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Comment Zoodino You are confused! this is unfortunate that you have misunderstood what the sources said. "He is the only Sailor "Petty Officer" (not a Major or lieutenant general that you've referred to). 1). For instance, show me a navy officer with equivalent rank who received the award in question?. 2). If Bangladesh have conferred their award on several other state heads that means it is more prestigious that i previously thought. 3). Show me a school or a block in India that was named after a navy officer with equivalent rank?

Those who have been awarded MVC are not Petty Officers in the navy, but they're "Major", L/NK, 2L/NK, NK, CHM etc. of the army. TheBirdsShedTears (talk) 18:15, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

• Strong keep Chiman Singh was also awarded Maha Vir Chakra and Friends of Liberation Award by Bangladesh. He was first Indian Navy enlisted personnel to get Maha Vir Chakra. He was also a war hero of Indi-Pakistan war of 1971 and Bangladesh Liberation war. A new diving school in Kochin training facility has also been named after Petty Officer Chiman Singh, MVC. So,He is a also notable person of Indian Military. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kumarsaikat (talk • contribs) 12:09, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

@Kumarsaikat:, Correcting the statements:

• He was one of the first, there are 8 such navy people in 1971 who got the MVC first time in Navy, according to https://gallantryawards.gov.in/awardees-0.
• (point same as in above reply) https://www.indiannavy.nic.in/content/new-diving-facility-honour-naval-war-hero-diving-school-kochi states that a new facility (block) is inaugrated in the already existing diving school in the subject's name. (not the complete school)

Zoodino (talk) 17:43, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Comment Zoodino You are confused! 1). Chiman Singh was only sailor (Jawan) who got the Maha Vir Chakra and other 8 Navy personnel were officers in Indian Navy(They were not an enlisted sailor). 2). Petty Officer Chiman Singh was awarded the Friends of Liberation War Honour by the President of the People’s Republic of Bangladesh in 2013. The award is also prestigious because the award is awarded by president of Bangladesh. 3). A newly constructed modern dive-training facility at the Diving School, of the Southern Naval Command (SNC) christened as the “Chiman Singh” Block.

• Delete Per WP:SOLDIER. As stated by nom, there should be more coverage and sources than what is currently listed in order to prove enduring notability. Mar4d (talk) 17:23, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

• Comment I can understand Kumarsaikat's urge to preserve the article because of their significant contributions to the article. Instead of replying to all the statements mentioned above by Kumarsaikat and TheBirdsShedTears, which would result in nothing but going round and round without any firm points. I would state clear reasons for my vote.

1. The artcile does not satisfies WP:SOLDIER in any manner to prove the notability of the subject. So it falls on WP:GNG to prove the notability.
2. WP:GNG states the subject should have received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. Examining the available references, it is clearly visible that their is only one reference, which may be worthy of consideration.

Therefore to conclude, the subject fails WP:GNG due to lack of significant coverage in independent and reliable sources. Zoodino (talk) 05:50, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

• Comment Zoodino this is an unreasonable excuse i have ever came across. Your nomination states "Doesn't meet the WP:SOLDIER, as the MVC is a second tier award and is awarded only once to the subject" and now you've raised your concerns regarding the "sources". There are plenty of reliable sources available that covers the subject straightforward. . Now how would you explain that?. TheBirdsShedTears (talk) 06:30, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

References

• @TheBirdsShedTears:, It is self explained if you analyse the links instead of just searching google and pasting directly here as refs.

  • Ref no. 2, 3, 5, 6, 7 and 8 : all published either on 15 Dec, 2017 or 16 Dec, 2017. All of them are news pieces about the same event "diving facility named after the subject". (the diving school does not have an article themselves on enwiki) These news sources report about the subject for only one event, that too about the diving facility as the primary point of the news article and the subject secondary; which would not be accounted as significant coverage. I can find a lot of individuals having news coverage more than this in reliable sources for single event, but that would not make them notable.

  • Ref no. 4 : a single name mention, with list hundreds of other awardees.

  Again my final statement is same "fails WP:GNG". Zoodino (talk) 15:04, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

• Comment Since you disagree with my assessment, it is better to wait for more AfD participants. TheBirdsShedTears (talk) 15:28, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

• Weak keep - I agree he doesn't meet a strict reading of WP:NSOLDIER, but in my mind he just barely meets WP:GNG with the awards and facility being named after him. I'm thinking of diving students attending the facility and then looking him up out of curiousity and not seeing him here. I made some minor improvements and added a source. But I would like to point out that many of the sources listed above are duplicates of the same PTI news feed. TimTempleton ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:05, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz ^Humbug! 17:52, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

• Comment - Replying to Timtempleton, we can not base our discussions on what would the students of the academy would feel (I know you may have mentioned it on a lighter note, but still). And Thanks for pointing out that most of the sources above are just copy of the PTI News feed. This is because most of the sources just report the subject for the same event (the opening of the facility), which is more of a single day news, which fails Wikiepdia is Not News. Zoodino (talk) 06:19, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

• Delete As pointed out by the last two comments, most of the sources are just copies of the PTI News Feed and I don't think what is left, or the subject more generally, is notability enough an article. As the last comment says Wikiepdia is Not News and there has to sustained in-depth coverage over time about multiple things in order for something to be notability. Which in any meaningful way doesn't seem to be the case here. --Adamant1 (talk) 03:50, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
• Delete: I'm not seeing that he meets SOLDIER or the GNG either. From what I read out of the voluminous keep arguments, they boil down to "A bunch of 1E casual mentions or namedrops = significant coverage" and WP:ITSIMPORTANT. Neither are supported by relevant notability guidelines. Ravenswing 23:09, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.