Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Charity John

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Consensus is to delete. There's a lot of words in the couple of keep votes but nothing that actually notes specific sources which discuss the subject in depth. Editors are reminded that AfD is for discussion of specific articles and whether or not there are sources supporting specific notability guidelines, a number of comments here on both sides seem to stray some distance from that. Fenix down (talk) 22:27, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Charity John[edit]

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Fails WP:GNG and WP:NFOOTBALL. The article claims that John is an international footballer but this is not supported by any reliable sources; she was called up to the squad but never played. Caps for Nigeria are documented by numerous sources so, if John has been capped, we should be able to find evidence. For example, if we take Ngozi Ebere, we can see evidence of her caps from multiple reliable sources such as Extra Time, GSA and Soccerway. Spiderone 22:04, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. Spiderone 22:04, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Spiderone 22:04, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Nigeria-related deletion discussions. Spiderone 22:04, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Spiderone 22:04, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Spiderone 22:12, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - fails GNG and NFOOTBALL. Giant Snowman 22:25, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete a complete failure of both GNG and football notability guidelines.John Pack Lambert (talk) 16:20, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per WP:GNG I've added a few references to get started with based off of a US-based Google search. Eurosport credits her with national team experience in 2015 as well as u-20 experience in 2008. Article could use expansion and improved referencing per WP:ATD, not deletion. #BlackLivesMatter Hmlarson (talk) 03:38, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There's no clear evidence that she has played for the national team from her Eurosport profile. She may well have been called up to the squad but she needs to have actually played at least part of a match to qualify for WP:NFOOTY. The sourcing is still just short of GNG, in my view. There are two sources that give her slightly more than a passing mention. What has BLM got to do with this? This is a legitimate AfD on a subject that does not meet our agreed inclusion criteria. Skin colour has nothing to do with this. Spiderone 10:14, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Go to https://www.eurosport.com/football/charity-john_prs445846/person.shtml click on Club Info / Prize List. Hmlarson (talk)

That does not prove that she has actually played a game for Nigeria, though Spiderone 07:54, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete She fails GNG and NFOOTBALL (it's difficult finding out whether she has played for a senior international team). A false allegation of this being a racially motivated AfD is appalling. Dougal18 (talk) 12:42, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - for what it's worth, I'm mixed race anyway so the thinly veiled accusation of racism is a laughable one. Spiderone 13:51, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Am I understanding correctly that you perceive #BLACKLIVESMATTER to be an accusation of racism? Hmlarson (talk) 20:56, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Sometimes I wonder if Wikipedia is even serious about closing gender gap, when they are mirroring the bias of the media in the interpretation of their guidelines. I am glad things are changing in the Nigerian media space, but some Wikipedians don't even care when they percieve there is a chance that the footballer might not have played for her country. I remember how the record goalscorer in the NWFL (Amarachi Orjinma) was also deleted, despite having some okay sources. Same also happened to some other women footballers I created that have won major individual awards in the league at the highest level.

I do not agree that the all-inclusive nature of WP:FOOTBALL applies to women's football, as virtually all women's league are not deemed "professional" by Wikipedia standards. What I interpret this to mean is that if you're a women footballer, and it is not clear that you've played for your country at the highest level, there is absolutely no chance of you having an article, especially when you are African (since we are at an evolving stage of sources properly covering women football). Nowadays, and based on recent AFDs, I will also say that even if you've played for your country, you could still be deleted if you fail GNG.

There is something wrong with this line of thoughts! HandsomeBoy (talk) 21:08, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, you're right Handsome Boy and it's why one of the original co-founders has moved on to creating Everipedia. Here's Orijinma's article which is now a top 5 result in the United States when searching her name: [1]. There will likely be other platforms as this one has allowed the bs for far too long. Hmlarson (talk) 21:22, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As with other businesses with a monopolistic advantage, Wikipedia needs a viable competitor to get things right. HandsomeBoy (talk) 22:34, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Caps for Nigeria are well documented as I have proved with links to several websites that document them in my original nomination comment. If John was ever capped, I would expect at least one source to clearly show that information, including date of cap, opponent, whether she was a substitute etc. If you believe that Charity John is notable enough then please prove that she satisfies WP:BASIC and give us evidence that she meets Wikipedia's wider criteria on biography notability as with any other article on a person, male or female, regardless of ethnic background. Spiderone 07:58, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

To be honest, my comment is not really about this AFD specifically, but I saw this AFD as an opportunity to vent my displeasure on what has been on my mind for a while now concerning the "discriminate notability bar" for women footballers. Let's also remember that unlike male footballer's, women footbalers tend to have a longer active national team career. I follow the Nigerian national teams passionately, and I can say that in the last 10 years, there have been very few additions to the squad. This is unlike our male team that caps players very frequently, limiting the creation of women players to only those that can be proved to have played for the national team at the highest level is implying that you really do not want many women footballers on Wikipedia. HandsomeBoy (talk) 12:01, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Spiderone You have proven nothing. Most editors who work in this area know that. Curious why it's so important for you to delete this article in particular when she clearly has references and national team experience. You're putting in a lot of effort for what? Clearly not to expand the article and add references per WP:ATD. Hmlarson (talk) 18:20, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I would happily expand the article if sources existed with which I could do so. Many footballers fail WP:NFOOTY but pass WP:GNG such as Sammie Wood, Sara Mérida and Angela Fimmano. Charity John does not appear to be in that group. Spiderone 18:20, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - fails GNG and specific football notability Deathlibrarian (talk) 00:17, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per WP:NFOOTBALL failure. Number 5 7 12:49, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I agree with others who have noted the obvious deficiencies with N:FOOTBALL rules for cases like this. WP:Football frequently gives off strong Manosphere vibes, as it is notoriously sexist. But it is discriminatory in all sorts of other ways too... and yes in this context it is important to note that Black Lives Matter. Anyway, this is a borderline case and for me the coverage of national Cup finals etc with her champion club Rivers Angels is enough to nudge WP:GNG. Spiderone has claimed that caps for Nigeria's Super Falcons are well documented but I am not sure that this is always the case. For instance I found that John was named in the squad for two friendlies against Japan in September 2013, along with Ebubeleye Whyte. I haven't been able to find the teams for the Japan games but the coach praised the performances of both his goalkeepers, perhaps implying that John did play some part. John apparently played in a 2014 AWC warm up friendly against a male team before she was cut from the final squad. So she is there or thereabouts and - realistically - even if she didn't get on the pitch in Japan (or in any other games), that in itself won't make too much difference to her overall notability. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 20:51, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete The sources in the article do not provide significant coverage of the individual, failing WP:GNG, and I have been unable to find that the individual has played for the senior national team. All of the sources sited are just passing mentions of the individual, usually in the context of a team performance. The individual also has not played in a fully-professional league, so they fail WP:NFOOTY. As far as political comments unrelated to AfD, please take these comments elsewhere. Wikipedia is not a soapbox and we are not here to right great wrongs, and AfD is certainly not the place to discuss changes to policy and guidelines. If you have issues with notability standards, take it up at the relevant talk pages i.e. WT:NSPORT. Jay eyem (talk) 17:19, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm still surprised that it hasn't been taken up at WT:NSPORT yet. Spiderone 18:53, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.