Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Caressa Savage

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. -- RoySmith (talk) 02:36, 31 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Caressa Savage[edit]

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Fails PORNBIO and the GNG. No nonscene awards or nominations. No independent, reliable sourcing. No reliably sourced biographical content. Reported mainstream appearances are borderline at best, generally do not involve notable projects; and there is no evidence or sourcing for the claim that the subject's were substantial enough to meet the "featured" requirement of PORNBIO rather than being minor. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 19:10, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been added to the WikiProject Pornography list of deletions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:48, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:50, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:50, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - meets of PORNBIO (two winners) and the GNG. Subtropical-man talk
(en-2) 22:18, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Scene related awards don't count towards PORNBIO so PORNBIO is not met. I know your grip on the GNG is tenuous at best so perhaps you can explain how the article meets GNG. The sources look inadequate for a BLP myself. Delete Spartaz ^Humbug! 22:55, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I've noticed in every single PORN related AFD Subtropical-man's been !voting keep, Is there any reason for this ?, I just find it odd that you seem to want every single non notable porn model kept ?, →Davey2010→→Talk to me!→ 13:37, 22 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  - No, not all, I support (keep) of all encyclopedic pornstars, well-known pornstars or/and with the winners or with many nominations. Subtropical-man talk
    (en-2) 15:59, 22 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

COMMENT - Before we get carried away with any discussion and/or debate, let review PORNBIO as it applies to Miss Savage. First off, as she's retired so its unlikely that she'll be winning any additional awards unless she returns to porn. Second, she's not a Hall of Fame member, but going by her work history on IAFD she does appear to be one of the earlier performers that predominantly appeared in lesbian or "girl/girl" videos with regard to "unique contributions to a specific pornographic genre". BUT, we'd need a source for that, not just my "eyeball analysis". So third, that leaves us with "featured multiple times in notable mainstream media". The New york Times reviewed one of the documentaries she was in [1] and the other two, though not well covered do seem legitimate in terms of not being "industry promo", actually the opposite. That said, there is little information about Miss Savage in general. Even AVN, XBIZ, and AEBN are light on info about her. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 23:38, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note that the Times did not review the documentary mentioned above; the linked "review" comes from the allmovie guide. No indication that the doc is notable. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 11:09, 23 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Well Wolfie, I think its nice that the summary is on Allmovie.com as well.[2] Isn't it great that the NY Times agrees with Allmovie's overview and endorses it by posting it on their website. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 01:21, 24 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - I agree with Scalhotrod, Savage is an award winning girl/girl only performer, so she passes WP:PORNBIO criteria #2. Lets not forget that Savage did porn in the 90's, long before the Girl/Girl Performer of the Year category was created by AVN and XBIZ in 2014. So, it's not fair to completely disregard wins for scene-related and ensemble categories when that is the only thing the recipient was eligible for. If the article isn't kept, it should at least be userfied because there is still a possibility that she will be inducted into the AVN or XRCO Hall of Fame, even if she is retired. Jasmin St. Claire for example, was inducted into the AVN Hall of Fame 10 years after retiring. Rebecca1990 (talk) 21:22, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Phony arguments, Rebecca. Despite what you say now, "girl/girl only" performers were generally eligible for, nominated for, and sometimes won qualifying awards under PORNBIO. And there's no case for the PORNBIO 2 argument, given that the "trend-setting" scenes she won awards for were in volumes 13 and 16 of a series. There might be a case, say, if volume 1 was involved. And, as usual, you produce absolutely no sourcing or evidence to back up your claims. If you think the article subject is a likely candidate for an industry hall of fame, some independent, third-party commentary is needed, rather than your own pulled-from-the-air PR notions. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 12:30, 23 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Phony counter argument, Wolfie Your assertions are fairly easy to dismiss since all you did was a cursory review of her work on IAFD. I can't see how which volume numbers of the series has any relevance when its the fact that she won awards for girl/girl scenes that indicates her contribution to the genre. Furthermore, out of 197 credits, 145 of them are for "LezOnly" or girl/girl, nearly 3/4's of her work is devoted to ONE genre. Looks significant to me... --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 01:21, 24 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
On balance, Delete. Although I accept the point made above that the Girl/Girl Performer of the Year category was created only recently, we are not psychics, and thus cannot guess who would have won such an award in 1997 or 1999. Thus, the only awards that this person has won are ensemble ones, and thus fail (on current policy guidelines) to create enough notability. If more evidence could be produced to support the claim that she has made an important contribution to the "girl/girl" genre I might be persuaded otherwise, but for now this person seems to fall short of our criteria for notability. RomanSpa (talk) 10:32, 21 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Spa, I can appreciate your stance, but the change to no longer accept ensemble awards is recent as well, within the last few months. Since then there have been a slew of PORN article deletions, mostly for new actresses. That said, I'd like to suggest that we not be in such a hurry to delete the article for an industry veteran from the 90's and 2000's. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 15:34, 21 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

And if you'd told me when I first signed up as an editor of Wikipedia that I would one day be carefully discussing and analysing an article like this, I'd have been incredulous. :-) RomanSpa (talk) 10:32, 21 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

LOL, Wikipedia works in mysterious ways... :) --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 15:34, 21 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep or per Rebecca1990's recommendation Userfy - Becs makes a good point about having a shot at being inducted into a HoF. I can understand the deletions due to the PORN BIO change for newer actresses, but this is a notable industry veteran. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 15:34, 21 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - The subject here appears to have "been featured multiple times in notable mainstream media" per her appearances in 3 documentaries, on The Jerry Springer Show, and in the book "Top Porn Stars Sex Tips and Tricks".

Note: As for the "change to no longer accept ensemble awards", while I don't necessarily agree with that change in the past, that change to PORNBIO was made a few years ago. Guy1890 (talk) 15:53, 21 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, sorry for the confusion on my part Guy. You are correct, it was the deletion of Award Nomination's from PORNBIO that was changed recently. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 17:08, 21 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per Rebecca1990 + Scalhotrod. →Davey2010→→Talk to me!→ 13:29, 22 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

COMMENT - OK, just when I thought I was off my nut for thinking that a star as old as Savage could return to the industry, I read this about Karen Summer's return. She's an earlier vintage than Savage, go figure... --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 19:52, 24 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.