Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cardinal Newman High School (Columbia, South Carolina) (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was speedy keep‎. / Nom withdrawn per my note here. We don't need to spend a week on this. Star Mississippi 02:29, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cardinal Newman High School (Columbia, South Carolina)[edit]

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I would normally redirect this to Roman_Catholic_Diocese_of_Charleston#Education as an ATD, but it survived AfD at a very different time for school discussions. I do not see evidence the school meets current guidelines as sourcing is neither in depth nor fully independent. No objection with a redirect, but didn't think it to be BLAR appropriate. Star Mississippi 01:00, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Education, Schools, Religion, and South Carolina. Star Mississippi 01:00, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Courtesy @CAPTAIN RAJU, Necrothesp, Mangoe, EagleFan, and Abductive: as participants in prior AfD who remain active editors. Star Mississippi 01:02, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Previous deletion arguments were entirely "it's a secondary school" so clearly don't hold. However initial searches show up this book [1] which contains a photo of the school in 1940 and confirms something buried in the infobox: the school was formerly known as Ursuline High School. "Roots back to 1856" does not quite verify that it was founded then, but it could have been. The book is published by Arcadia Publishing, publishers of local histories. Not clear if there is any editorial oversight. In any case, that entry is not SIGCOV. What it does suggest is that any searches should include searches for "Ursuline High Scool" by that name. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 07:47, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, in fact, it was the Ursuline Academy, and during the Burning of Columbia during the Civil War, Gen. Sherman protected the teacher(s) and girl students. I urge the nominator to withdraw this nomination. In fact, I hope that the nominator is not on some sort of crusade to delete articles on high schools. It should be obvious that a Catholic high school dating back to 1858 in the American South, where Catholics were rare and were sometimes lynched, isn't going to be like a run-of-the-mill high school founded in 1958 in a suburb of Boston. Abductive (reasoning) 09:28, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am sure the nom. is in good faith. There is not much in the article itself that supports notability, and missing that historical name would affect any WP:BEFORE. Do you have a source for the civil war mention. If we have notable mention in a history, I expect this will be an easy keep, but we still need the sources, and we could get that into the page. Thanks. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 09:33, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Sources: Passing mentions in this one [2] but on page 439 we have this passage: ... Cardinal Newman, successor to famed Ursuline Academy, began classes in spring of 1961... That is a passing mention in itself but it indicates there will be more. The writer believed that Ursuline Academy was famous, and thus, presumably, notable. I also found a self published document which has a description of the history alluded to above, although sources are not given. This is a WP:SPS so not reliable as it stands. Indeed, when I tried to link it, the edit was refused as it is on a blacklisted site. So definitely not a WP:RS in that form. The blacklisted document is a Word doc, filename zc+The+Ursulines+during+the+Civil+War+Article+34+(1) - no author given. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 10:01, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
South Carolina Handbook (1908) [3] has this on page 208:
URSULINE CONVENT.
All records, from the date of foundation by Rev. J. J. O'Conndl in Columbia in 1858 to the burning of Columbia by Sherman in 1865, when the Convent was burned, were destroyed. Shortly after the war steps were taken to rebuild and refurnish the school, and now the Convent stands on the corner of Assembly Street and Hampton Avenue, a monument to their devotion to education by the Catholics of the State. It is a commodious and handsome building, furnished with all modem equipments and the best sanitary arrangements, thoroughly heated and well ventilated. The grounds are ample for outdoor exercise, which is required by the rules of the Academy to take, and which the delightful climate renders pleasant I throughout the year. In point of health and beauty, Columbia does not yield to any Southern city; hence the Academy is URSULINE ACADEMY. ideally situated and attracts students from other sections. In admission of students no distinction is made on account of creed, nor is any undue influence used over their religious principles. The institution is chartered by the Legislature of South Carolina, and is empowered to confer degrees and diplomas. The Convent is under control of the Right Rev. Bishop Northrop and the Mother Superior, Mother Angela Broomfield, and a high class of education is furnished.
Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 10:35, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - This source seals it for me:

Curran, Robert Emmett (2019). For Church and Confederacy: the Lynches of South Carolina. Columbia, South Carolina: The University of South Carolina Press. ISBN 9781611179170.

This book covers the convent and this school quite extensively whilst describing aspects of the civil war. It is a WP:RS, significant coverage, independent and secondary. Although not multiple, this clearly validates sources above that speak of the school as famous, and there is no doubt in reading the source that it was a significant part of the events. So yes, this is notable. The article itself has none of this, and this source does not verify the statement above about Sherman shielding the charges. In fact, in the chapter "1865 February–April", it describes the events of the burning of the building without suggestion of them being taken to safety. So I would request this AfD not be withdrawn just yet. Deletion is not for cleanup, but now we are here, it would be very helpful if we could find if there are more sources about these events that could be placed into the article. The school is notable for its history, but currently nothing that makes it notable is in the article. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 11:02, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per Sirfurboy. Meets WP:GNG. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:09, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nom comment I won't drag this out 7 days if enough sourcing is found. AfD isn't for cleanup, but the Ursuline tie is a nice result. I don't think per WP:ARCADIA it can be used on its own but if the material behind that and the SPS are determined, there's probably enough to verify the history. Not sure what a school in a Massachusetts suburb has to do with anything unless that's from a prior discussion I don't recall? Writing pre coffee. Re: I hope that the nominator is not on some sort of crusade to delete articles on high schools. I think this picks up all of my AfD noms of late. I think you'll see I'm not on a crusade to delete anything although I'm sure I've nominated schools along with every topic in my time here. I simply found it when looking at some other SC schools and wasn't convinced on notability. Nothing more, nothing less. While Necrothesp and Sirfurboy and I sometimes see content from a different POV, I think they'd both tell you anything I put forward is in good faith. Star Mississippi 12:17, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for this. I do think Curran (2019) is the clincher here. But Not sure what a school in a Massachusetts suburb has to do with anything - what does that refer to? I found a different Ursuline Academy in Texas, but I think all the sources I mentioned were for South Carolina. Have I mixed any up? As to good faith - definitely no concerns on that score. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 13:34, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That was @Abductive's POV here It should be obvious that a Catholic high school dating back to 1858 in the American South, where Catholics were rare and were sometimes lynched, isn't going to be like a run-of-the-mill high school founded in 1958 in a suburb of Boston. Maybe something lost in translation on my end. Anyway, thanks for your research and note @Sirfurboy. Withdrawing on the grounds that sufficient sourcing exists to indicate there is more not as easily accessible but 99.99% confirmed to exist. Star Mississippi 02:28, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Sirfurboy's analysis and the sources he provided make a strong case for the subject's notability. I completely concur. Dejaqo (talk) 17:02, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per Sirfurboy. I have also not yet checked Newspapers.com. Scorpions1325 (talk) 23:44, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.