Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Brazilian Film Festival of London (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. No strong support for the current state of the article has emerged, nor has any particular new arguments to delete it. Neither has there been any objection to Doncram's suggestion to move and incorporate what sourceable information we have on this festival into a broader article on Inffinito, currently redlinked. If Doncram wishes to put that into action, it is absolutely permitted by this inconclusive discussion. ~ mazca ^talk 01:02, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Brazilian Film Festival of London[edit]

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Survived AfD in 2010 but this festival Brazilian Film Festival of London was not long-lived and does not seem to have acquired notability. Mccapra (talk) 22:59, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. Mccapra (talk) 22:59, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Film-related deletion discussions. Mccapra (talk) 22:59, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. Mccapra (talk) 22:59, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Brazil-related deletion discussions. Mccapra (talk) 22:59, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

[[:File:CidadedeDeus.jpg|right|thumb|City of God (2002 film)]] (apparently image is non-free, cannot be displayed here) [[:File:Turma da Mônica Laços Film Poster.png|right|thumb|Turma da Mônica: Laços (film), one of the 2019 Brazilian films, whose article has a redlink to 2019 Hollywood Brazilian Film Festival, probably better covered in a combo list-article of film festivals of Inffinito]] (image non-free) [[:File:LinhadePasse.JPEG|right|thumb|Linha de Passe]] (image non-free)

Keep, tentatively. The first AFD was in 2010, and there were sources then, and "notability is not temporary". And there have been sources since, which I am not compiling myself. But here is a link to a page about its 2013 festival, the 5th running. Seems like a major-ish, somewhat successful-ish effort to promote about Brazilian films, explicitly the result of a Brazilian campaign. Let's not get side-tracked about it being "promotional"; the meaning here is not that the language of the Wikipedia article is unduly promotional; there are obviously very Wikipedia-notable promotional events/festivals/ad campaigns/etc.; virtually any film festival can be regarded as being promotional for its movies, or for the locale hosting it, or whatever. I will acknowledge that the current article is short and, even if it is about a notable topic and could be expanded, it does not have to have a separate article necessarily; it could perhaps be merged into a list-article about film festivals in London, or one about Brazilian films, or an article about the Brazilian film industry, perhaps. But readers should be allowed to find their way to wherever it is covered in Wikipedia, so if it is merged a redirect should be left behind. And if someone does choose to develop the topic more with more sources later, they should be able to re-start with the edit history in place (and with the Talk page links to the previous and current AFDs). However, in absence of a specific merger target so far, I think "Keep" is best for now. --Doncram (talk) 18:46, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Update: Well, there is a row for this at List of film festivals in Europe#Brazilian Film Festival of London. The topic could be merged to there, and the bluelink there delinked. The entry there currently is without sources (okay because it links to an article that has the sources) and could be revised to add sources and explain that it ran from 2009 to at least 2013, and so on. The topic of film festivals in general is a big/important topic; it is useful for Wikipedia to cover significant festivals whether they survive forever or not. Keeping my "Keep" vote for now as I think the article could be expanded. Sure tag it for expansion, if you like. --Doncram (talk) 19:03, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, actually, perhaps better would be to modify/move this article to be about Inffinito, the larger Brazilian film festival initiative itself. On the larger level it is even more obviously notable, and it is even a little bit weird to have a Wikipedia article about just one of its festivals, and with the London one not being the most significant one. There is this detail about the Miami version of festival back in 2011. The current http://inffinito.com website is mentioning "14th Brazilian Film Festival of New York / Junho 23-27" and "24th Brazilian Film Festival of Miami / Setembro 11-19". This would best be characterized as a "Keep" outcome of AFD, I suppose, but noting there is a natural renaming and expansion of the article to be done; AFDs are often closed with conditions stated about what needs to be done in case of a Keep or other decision. --Doncram (talk) 19:15, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, Inffinito is a major operation, in its 25th year of operation, doing more than just film festivals, too. See English language "about" page, this page about Inffinito's own TV productions which include, at least, films about the film festivals themselves, this page about the Circuito Inffinito de Festivais which mentions having had "80 edições do Brazilian Film Festival ao redor do mundo" so far. It certainly is valid to state that "Inffinito is today one of the most important cultural producers in Brazil and the largest showcase of brazilian cinema abroad.", whether or not u want to buy into its exhortation to "surpass your limits, believe in expansion and reach what is considered impossible", etc. :) --Doncram (talk) 19:27, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Ok but isn’t that just a completely different article? Mccapra (talk) 20:55, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Well, no, at least not in my view about how AFD should operate. BTW, I think you and I have edited on some of the same AFDs before, i happen to notice at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Grand Hotel Cirta just now. When I browse in AFDs, considering whether to participate, I tend to look for cases--usually places, sometimes organizations--where a topic seems save-able. And wp:ATD(?) alternatives to deletion are important, we should look for them. And I think it is good to look at somewhat broader topics of "things like this one", towards solving a bigger problem than just one narrow topic. Here, there is a topic or two around this which are needed; you seem to agree Inffinito (currently a redlink), at least, is notable. And the narrow and broader situation can be addressed by renaming and expanding, and that saves the original edit history. On a technical point, yes, the Inffinito article could be created separately, then merge/redirect the Brazilian Film Festival of London to a section within it, but I prefer to move it and expand. Either way the edit history is retained, and a later editor could expand the redirect. I happen to prefer moving the edit history to allow full crediting of original authors in creating something which survived and was expanded, and makes the AFD link from the Talk page more accessible in the future, and otherwise informs the continuing situation better. The point of AFD should be about improving Wikipedia's continuing coverage in a broad area, not about running up deletion tallies or having success in destroying others' work (not saying or meaning those are your goals, at all, but those goals seem to be in play often).

Anyhow, if you more or less agree, could you withdraw and close your AFD nomination (which u can do because there are no other "Delete" votes), and I would be happy to do the move and some expansion (including making sections for the London, Miami, New York festivals)? Or, while I don't think others should have to weigh in, I'm also happy to let this run its course, do later. --Doncram (talk)

Keep and move and rewrite to the subject of Inffinito which is more notable than this festival but it can be included there, imv Atlantic306 (talk)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 07:26, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Ready to be closed. I prefer "Keep" as official outcome, but don't care if it is closed "Merge" or "Keep" with stipulation that it be merged or "no consensus" or "other" or whatever. No matter how the close is termed, however, this article will be moved by me to "Inffinito" and expanded, with the redirect pointing to an anchor/section about this festival, there. If, bizarrely, this article were to be deleted, then I would arrange for it to be restored before moving. I don't think further review is necessary, unless people want to quibble about the term to use in the close itself, with no effect on what actually happens with the article. --Doncram (talk) 18:01, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.