Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Biblical money management

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. There is a numerical majority for "keep" here, and so calling a "delete" here is due to the article's shortcomings in meeting policy requirements. In particular, the question is whether the article is a stub (allowed on Wikipedia), or a dictionary definition (not allowed on Wikipedia). Reviewing the article, and the discussion here, I find that in this case it is the "deletionist" camp who have the correct interpretation of policy: this article does not meet the criteria to qualify as a WP:STUB. In addition, the article's content is perilously close to being a rephrasing of the title that speedy deletion criterion A3 would apply.

The critical policy and guideline sentences I have applied are:

From WP:NOT: "Although articles should begin with a good definition and description of one topic, they should provide other types of information about that topic as well."
From WP:STUB: "A stub is an article containing only a few sentences of text which is too short to provide encyclopedic coverage of a subject, but not so short as to provide no useful information".

The entirity of current content is a sentence saying the "biblical money management" is money management from the use of biblical scripture. This is a definition self-evident from the article's title. There is nothing wrong about suggesting two books as references, but they have not really been used to source anything substantial in the article, simply because the article contains nothing substantial. The article has no content beyond the definition, which violates the line from WP:NOT, and without any more content I cannot see any information which could be considered "useful", and which would qualify the article as a valid stub entry.

The closure here is without prejudice against recreation, because there appears to be an informed consensus that the subject of Biblical money management is notable enough. Sjakkalle (Check!) 15:27, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Biblical money management[edit]

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This is some sort of WP:NEO, ~~written as WP:ESSAY, dripping with WP:OR and arriving at a conclusion. My gosh, where's the CSD for these?~~ and nothing more than a dictionary entry. Wikipedia is not a dictionary. — Timneu22 · talk 21:29, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Per nom. Also, seems to fail NPOV, by sing the phrase "God’s view of our everyday handling of money". The article implies that this may be an area of study somewhere, but beyond that, it looks like somebody just made this up one day. Lastly, the references listed seem to be used to define the terms that the article creator uses to arrive at his conclusion. RadManCF ☢ open frequency 21:41, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm... this is a bit tricky. The article is pretty much everything Wikipedia isn't for balled up into one, but the subject does appear to be a thing that actually exists and we should probably have a page on (see this article on the increase in christian financial advisement services), though it might be better placed at a different title. Redirection to Crown Financial Ministries, the primary users of the term (and who have a by all appearances decent article) will probably satisfy the problem for now. --erachima talk 23:17, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

commentnot a bad idea. RadManCF ☢ open frequency 23:27, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise All this article needs is some work in accordance with our editing policy. I have knocked the article back to a stub, citating substantial works on the topic which testify to its notability and providing a link to the similar subject of Islamic economics. Colonel Warden (talk) 06:32, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, the colonel's version is fine. --Nuujinn (talk) 21:11, 18 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The stub is notable, referenced and well-defined. Abby Kelleyite (talk) 15:46, 19 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:27, 21 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Render unto … erm … Colonel Warden that which is … erm … recorded by MediaWiki as Colonel Warden's edit.
A quick search turns up plenty of sources that confirm that the original statements in the original article were 100% wrong. This subject isn't new at all. One book on the subject that I found, not cited here, starts with Luke 16:1-8, the Parable of the Unjust Steward. Several others mention Proverbs 22:7 and Proverbs 28:8. Then there's Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible, which has whole articles giving Biblical views on money management subjects from "Debt, Interest, Loans" (pp. 332 et seq.) to "Wealth" (pp. 1371 et seq.). It seems that people have long since spotted that the Christian Bible contains advice in this area, and covered the subject at length. Uncle G (talk) 01:01, 21 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Colonel Warden has done an excellent job of cleaning it up and we now have a good stub. Mauler90 _talk 01:06, 21 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per Colonel Warden's cleanup. Jujutacular ^T · C 13:29, 21 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Good work by Colonel W on making something upon which to build the article. The links can be used by anyone who wants to build an article about basic principles. As with something like onboarding, one can give examples of what various books cite. Generally, a reference is made to a Bible verse (a lot of times from the Book of Proverbs) and then it's tied to some instruction on borrowing, investing, etc. Mandsford 13:53, 21 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. The article in its current state is a dictionary definition. I'm not at all sure that this can be expanded without filling the article full of original research. There is not really a field of moral theology specifically called "Biblical money management", only a number of people who are offering advice on personal finance dressed up with Biblical references. An article on Christianity and economics or Christian economic thought might be sustainable, but I think this probably isn't going anywhere. I'm afraid that I have to stay with delete, at least weakly. - Smerdis of Tlön - killing the human spirit since 2003! 16:34, 21 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. Note also that we have an article on stewardship (theology), where much if not all of the material that could fit under this title might belong. - Smerdis of Tlön - killing the human spirit since 2003! 16:40, 21 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - Incorrect. The idea that Man is Steward of the Earth is not to do with money management. I suggest reading the entry on "Debt, Interest, Loans" that I pointed to before to get an idea of what this topic deals in. (And when you've done so, read the articles for "Debt", "Banking", and "Money" in Bromiley's International Standard Bible Encyclopedia.) There very much is a parallel to Islamic economics (not least because the strictures have common origins) as Colonel Warden states, but the subject is also a separate one (not least because of the Calvinist reinterpretations in Christian thinking about the Old Testament, but also because of the great extent to which the New Testament relates and compares economics and sin).
    And if you think that there's not a field of study here, I suggest that you take it up with Richard Lee Greaves, erstwhile professor of History at Florida State University and president of the American Society of Church History, whose book Society and religion in Elizabethan England devotes the whole of chapter 14 to Christian reformist thinking on the subjects of usury, loans, the taking of interest, becoming a guarantor, and ethical principles for conducting business. And that would be just one section of a Christian parallel to Islamic economics, exactly as started here. Uncle G (talk) 10:58, 22 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete There is no article. There is just a one-sentence dictionary definition with links to a couple of obscure books. And, no, this vote was not purchased with 30 pieces of silver.Regent of the Seatopians (talk) 02:10, 22 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete What we have here is a textbook WP:DICDEF. If kept, it could use a different title. Courcelles (talk) 10:41, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A textbook dictionary entry would have a focus upon the particular word or words used - their parts of speech, spelling, etymology and the like. A further test would be to consider whether we could develop the same topic under a different heading, using different words and it seems that we could - calling the article Christian finance, Scriptural guidance about money or the like. So, the current version is just short being a stub. The policy which you cite - WP:DICDEF - goes to some trouble to explain that being short does not make a stub into a dictionary entry. It is therefore not applicable. Colonel Warden (talk) 13:13, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.