Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Beyond Words (1997 film) (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Louis van Gasteren. There appears to be a rough consensus against keeping the page as a stand alone article. Past that things get fuzzy. There were a couple of calls for a merge along with several straight delete comments. IMO the best course is to call this a redirect which is what the OP originally was calling for. I note that the page history is preserved and this close is w/o prejudice to anyone who wants to undertake a selective merge to the targeted page. Any concerns about merged material can be handled in the customary manner via a talk page discussion. Ad Orientem (talk) 04:54, 15 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Beyond Words (1997 film)[edit]

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I boldly redirected this article to the director's page but was twice-reverted.

Thus, under the purview of WP:ATD-R, I am asking the community to opine and decide on the merits of preserving this page as a standalone entry or redirecting it to the article about its film-director (Louis van Gasteren) / master-film (Nema aviona za Zagreb).

The argument is the same, as invoked in the previous AfD :- Non-notable documentary film with no significant coverage in secondary sources that are independent of the subject and no evidence of satisfying WP:NFILM.

Two of the sources are from Meher Baba's biography-cum-hagiography by one of his closest cult-associates. One is from Meher Baba's trustee. Another is from MeherBaba's association in UK. Another is (finally!) a non-universe source comprising of a collection of Gasteren's diary entries.

The two lone dissidents (who even opposed a redirect) in the previous AfD invoked an other staff exists focused argument which was coupled with false aspersions and personal attacks on the nominator and others.

Paging @GSS, StrayBolt, Hoverfish, Dazedbythebell, Fitindia, and Randy Kryn:-- all the participants of the previous AfD. ∯WBG^converse 19:59, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Film-related deletion discussions. ∯WBG^converse 19:59, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Religion-related deletion discussions. ∯WBG^converse 19:59, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. ∯WBG^converse 19:59, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Netherlands-related deletion discussions. ∯WBG^converse 19:59, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Keep per last discussion and the notability of this documentary. The uniqueness of this film, as defined on its page, is historically important. Randy Kryn (talk) 20:05, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

and whoops, the nominator is now removing data from the article even while saying in the edit summary that one source, which alone could save this page, is a good source "The latter is a reliable book but we need page numbers and all that". Play fair, and put it back. Randy Kryn (talk) 20:13, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Randy Kryn, I just checked the book and it contains nothing about the film, except listing it in his extended filmography-list, at the end of the book, that contains 58 entries. Since I am not denying that Gasteren did not produce the film (or something like that), the source has zero non-superfluous relevance. Also dropping in a voluminous book w/o mentioning page numbers/chapter is awful bibliographic practice. ∯WBG^converse 20:37, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Does the book have an index? In other news, the famed director and now-famous cinematograph are extensively directly quoted in one of the sources you don't count as a source. The quotes seem notable and were obtained journalistically. And where is the diary entry you mentioned earlier, is it the source in Dutch (can't read Dutch)? Randy Kryn (talk) 20:52, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The book has an index, which does not mention the film. FWIW, I can access the book from both JSTOR and DeGruyter which provide soft-copies in the form of searchable pdfs.

Meher Baba's trust sourcing bytes from filmmakers (and associates) ain't obviously a reliable source. ∯WBG^converse 20:57, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently needed comment, as with the last set of M. Baba nominations, which the nominator recently described as "fun", I want to say and get on the record again that I am not a member of Baba's groups or religion, have only read maybe two pages of one of his books, met one of his disciples once, have never advocated for Baba's views of life (well, have sung "Don't Worry, Be Happy" and have a singing trophy-fish somewhere that sings the song) and do not have a Baba mustache. The subject is historically important, and the documentary in relationship to the subject is historically important. Randy Kryn (talk) 20:34, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, or if not kept, merge. Film and person are two different things. Appearance of impropriety to remove material from an article while seeking its deletion, when the material could be tagged within the article. Hyperbolick (talk) 20:54, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I am so pleased to read the first line; genuinely thought that films and persons are same. ∯WBG^converse 20:58, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Per User:Spartaz in closing "Discussion about redirect or merge can continue on article talk." Why use AfD? Hyperbolick (talk) 21:06, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Can't recall the specific thread but I have closed a process-RfC, about a year back that explicitly authorized AfDs as a correct venue for challenging reverted redirections, after a BR cycle. ∯WBG^converse 04:33, 8 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hyperbolick, read Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_deletion/Archive_71#"AFD_is_not_for_redirecting"?. ∯WBG^converse 09:40, 8 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I stand by my previous comment; Non-notable documentary film with no significant coverage in secondary sources that are independent of the subject and no evidence of satisfying WP:NFILM so delete. GSS (talk|c|em) 08:06, 8 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Of the current sourcing, 1 is a dead link, one is a primary source, and one is a promotional site. The final ref isn't really go in-depth about this film. Searches turned up virtually zero anything else about this documentary. While WP:NOTINHERITED, is definitely a policy, I understand Randy Kryn's point about the historicity of the film. However, the dearth of sourcing leaves me in the delete camp.Onel5969 ^{TT me} 16:03, 8 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - As per my last vote on the previous deletion discussion nothing has changed. The film still fails WP:NFILM. FitIndia ^{✉ बात} 17:29, 8 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Merge - It should be merged into a new section of Nema aviona za Zagreb. Change this to a redirect to that section. Too many notable pieces to delete, but not enough for for its own article per WP:NFILM. Open to a section in Louis van Gasteren. StrayBolt (talk) 01:20, 11 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
There's nothing to merge. A redirect, at most. ∯WBG^converse 08:52, 12 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

And, I will prefer Gasteren as a target since, there's RSs confirming it as his work but none linking it to Nema Zagreb, at all. It's very likely to be true but still, ..... ∯WBG^converse 13:45, 12 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I added a source connecting the two films.[1] StrayBolt (talk) 06:06, 13 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
StrayBolt, how precisely does the source supports the linkage? The 6 films are provided as his detailed works on each of the variety of topics, entertained in Nema Zagreb. ∯WBG^converse 16:23, 13 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to director Louis van Gasteren article where the film is already listed - as it stands, the Beyond Words article does not meet WP:NFILM - the references in the article do not appear to be strong enough to meet WP:NFSOURCES or WP:NFO which require that a film has received full-length reviews by two or more nationally known critics published in reliable independent sources - Epinoia (talk) 03:06, 14 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.