Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ben Croshaw

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Proto::► 16:08, 13 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ben Croshaw[edit]

Lacks reliable sources to show individual notability. Appears to be a developer of games that are not notable according to WP:SOFTWARE. Andre (talk) 22:12, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I forgot to add, he also fails WP:BIO. Andre (talk) 21:45, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom. No RS, no apparent notability. -- Kicking222 00:52, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep If you delete this then go ahead and delete the Adventure Game Studio article and all the games associated with it because Ben Crowshaw is the most notable creator for it. Then call for the deletion of all the Interactive Fiction articles and all related authors and games like Andrew Plotkin and Photopia because they're just as notable as Ben Crowshaw and his games. If you're not willing to do that then stop bothering these pages. Richard Cane 02:35, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • That's not a valid argument. Perhaps all of those things should be deleted if they're not sourced and proven to be notable. Andre (talk) 02:54, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • No, they have to be deleted because they aren't sourced or notable to the extent you seem to demand. Start with putting that deletion notice on Andrew Plotkin and then work on over to Adam Cadre. Delete their games and then go from there. I've provided you a list and all you have to do is put that deletion notice on them so you can clean house. Richard Cane 14:17, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've decided to post a list to help you on your deletion crusade.

    Delete most of the games on these lists: List of freeware games Category:Fanmade computer game remakes and sequels

    These aren't notable so delete this article: List of amateur adventure games

    Why bother? Amateur developers aren't commercial and that makes them unimportant. Not notable: Amateur adventure game.

    These are what allow people to create their own games and not make a profit so I don't think anyone needs to know about these: Category:Adventure game engines, Category:Text adventure game engines

    Sorry Japs, not notable :-(: Dojin soft Category:Dojin soft Richard Cane 03:16, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

    • I have already tagged many such pages for deletion. However, it has nothing to do with being commercial. Software is notable if it has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the company itself. As it happens, very few games created by amateurs using game creation software can make that claim. Andre (talk) 03:45, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • To elaborate: it's clear to me that, say, Cave Story, is quite notable, despite being noncommercial, due to the great deal of critical coverage in independent, notable, reliable sources. However, Ben Croshaw's titles do not have this sort of critical recognition. Not that I feel that they are without merit because they are obscure, but that they are simply not suited for a general purpose encyclopedia due to notability requirements. Andre (talk) 03:53, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Seriously, how can the notable quality of Ben Croshaw even be worth of discussion? The guy won innumerous awards for his games, check out their pages:
    • www.fullyramblomatic.com/5days
    • www.fullyramblomatic.com/7days
  • and that is just the tip of the iceberg

    The guy also ran a pretty famous webcomic... Please, if the http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/ should put ONE person to be grateful of having as developer, he'd be chosen by far.

    Also, he'd been featured in many specialized magazines (I'm sorry I don't know links to prove this, but I've seen such magazines.

    And one more thing, to prove the man capabilities, he have been working on a fairly well known australian games mag to write for it (if you also don't belive this, buy a mag and see it for yourself)

    I'm not a frequent wiki editor, so sorry if I made any mistakes here, I'm just trying to prove a point--200.178.127.73 04:07, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • even more info about him:

    http://www.answers.com/topic/ben-croshaw--200.178.127.73 04:11, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

    • That's a mirror of the Wikipedia article. If the only source that you can cite to demonstrate that this person satisfies our Wikipedia:Criteria for inclusion of biographies is the Wikipedia article itself, then not only does this person fail to satisfy the notability criteria, but the article content even fails to satisfy the Wikipedia:Verifiability requirements. Please cite sources to show that the WP:BIO criteria are satisfied. Uncle G 09:27, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Then delete every author of an interactive fiction title. Then delete every interactive fiction game and then proceed through the lists I've provided above. You can't just pick one group of authors and amateur games designed from Adventure Game Studio while ignoring others who have just as much notability. Eliminate them all or don't even bother trying to argue about notability. Richard Cane 13:44, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • As I say, we will eliminate them all if they are as notable as Mr. Croshaw. Andre (talk) 14:32, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
          • Why the delay? Are you scared to touch the interactive fiction games and authors? Prove they are more notable than Ben Croshaw or delete as per norm. Richard Cane 14:43, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
            • Since you say that they aren't notable, I'll get to them when I finish with the amateur adventure games. Face it, the "there are other things equally unnotable" argument isn't working. For now, this article must be assessed irrespective of any future deletions. Andre (talk) 21:28, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: I believe references to print magazines will appear in time.--Wormsie 11:41, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. The guy's an amateur and quite unheard of. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DigitalEnthusiast (talk • contribs)
  • Keep if the software is notable & he wrote it, and is known to have wrote it, he's notable. Deleting this is not following the intent of the policy DGG 08:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Croshaw is the most renowned developer of AGS freeware adventure games, is well known amongst the freeware adventure community, has a very large following AND has had his games featured in UK PC Magazines. I think you need to leave him alone. Mark
  • Keep The above user is right, two of his adventure games (5 days a stranger and 7 days a skeptic) were included on the February 2006 PCGamer UK DVD, issue 158, as 'some of the best' of modern freeware adventure games. -- Catriona McM 16:27, 11 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Many of yahtzee's games have been on cover disks of print magazines. See http://americangirlscouts.org/agswiki/AGS_in_the_media for a list of general AGS mentions and scans, but especially http://americangirlscouts.org/agswiki/Image:Ags_in_the_media_hyper1.jpg. I have also added 8 references to reviews of his games to the article. --Amaccormack 13:44, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep This is an interactive online encyclopedia, You should be able to search for and find out about as many things as possible. Whats the point of deleting something that is perfectly informative and relavant? If this and it's related articles were nonsense about a nobody then it's understandable that it should not exist. However Ben Crowshaw is a well known AGS developer with a cult following, I see no reason whatsoever why he should not be listed here for anybody who wants to find out about him to be able to do a search. Anything that says otherwise in your policy is just Bureaucracy and you Mr. Andrew "Power trip" Fader are using that policy to achieve your own ends. 148.197.133.135 13:05, 13 December 2006 (UTC) Walexei[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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