Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Belkacem Niati

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. The "keeps" are largely based on the slew of references provided early on in the discussion; however, nobody arguing to keep has presented evidence here as to how these sources constitute WP:SIGCOV. The argument that interviews are admissible is an oversimplification; interviews may count toward GNG when they have intellectually independent content; that has not been demonstrated here. Vanamonde (Talk) 05:00, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Belkacem Niati[edit]

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Fails WP:GNG. Pelmeen10 (talk) 02:07, 14 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Football and Algeria. Pelmeen10 (talk) 02:07, 14 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 10:43, 14 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 10:52, 14 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - I found 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, and 16, among many many more French sources. There are definitely Arabic sources as well. Clearly significant figure in local Algerian football with over 100+ appeanrces in the fully pro Algerian top flight as well as a 2017-18 Algerian Cup winner. Thanks, Das osmnezz (talk) 20:54, 14 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well, can you improve the article in this case? Currently it seems his achievement is 24 apps is Ligue2. Pelmeen10 (talk) 21:20, 14 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

According to soccerway.com, Niati played for CR Belouizdad during the 2016–17 season, but he did not appear for the club in any cup matches for which they have records (round of 16 or later), so it's hardly accurate to say he was a cup winner (even accounting for the fact you cited the wrong season). Jogurney (talk) 15:33, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per sources above which show notability. Giant Snowman 20:25, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Fails GNG. The refbombing above has no significant coverage of Niati. Dougal18 (talk) 10:28, 16 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per sources by Das osmnezz.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 16:13, 16 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Can we please ban Dasosmnezz from refbombing AfDs? These source lists he produces are always majority composed of exactly the types of sources he personally has seen rejected in dozens of footballer AfDs (Q&A interviews, routine transactional announcements, non-independent profiles), so even if on rare occasions there is a piece of SIRS SIGCOV, other editors are still forced to wade through and analyze a bunch of junk at every single AfD.

3, competition.dz is a Q&A interview:

. 4, lexpressiondz.com is another Q&A interview:

. 5, lebuteur.com via djazairess.com is a routine press release with no SIGCOV:

. 6, elwatan.com is a handful of sentences reporting contract negotiations:

. 7, lebuteur.com is details on an earlier transfer dispute that offer slightly more coverage but are more about administrative issues than Niati himself:

. 8, dknews-dz.com is a routine transactional announcement:

. 9, depechedekabylie.com has almost zero independent info on Niati as it is about the coach/management's response to player strikes in general:

. 10 is another Q&A from the same outlet as 3:

. 11 is a Q&A from the same outlet as 9:

. 12 is a reprint of a very brief Q&A from outlet #7 hosted by outlet #5:

. 11 is a post-game Q&A by outlet #7:

. 12 from outlet #3 is a bare quote by Niati followed by general updates on JSMB that do not contain SIGCOV of Niati:

. 14 is another Q&A from outlet #11:

. 15, presse-algerie.net is entirely quotes from Niati:

. JoelleJay (talk) 22:10, 16 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Q&A interviews are admissible for GNG AFAIK.--Ortizesp (talk) 16:45, 18 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

By "Q&A interviews" I am referring to those that provide little to no independent commentary by the interviewer. These absolutely do not contribute to GNG as they are primary and violate OR. All of Niati's interviews are of the useless Q&A format and so cannot count towards notability. JoelleJay (talk) 18:21, 18 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

they don't count for GNG, they can be used to hang additional facts on the main article tree, but they don't support the tree themselves. Oaktree b (talk) 02:54, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep passes GNG per above refs.--Ortizesp (talk) 16:45, 18 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Weak delete - Although Niati had a pretty full career playing football in the Algerian top division, I can't see any coverage that rises to the level of WP:SIGCOV. Most third party coverage focuses on two contract disputes (in 2015 and 2019) rather than detailing his career or achievements (This Algerian football magazine dedicates a single paragraph to the 2015 transfer dispute). There is plenty of superficial coverage (noted above) that doesn't discuss his career but rather focuses on a single upcoming or completed match or team training. None of this suggests WP:GNG could be met. If someone can find older (pre-2015) editions of Journal Maracana online, perhaps we would find more in depth coverage of his career there, but for now it's just wishful thinking. Jogurney (talk) 15:22, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, issuu.com has a search function and it's fairly easy to find older editions of Journal Maracana there. The coverage is generally routine from what I found (This post-match interview is representative). I'm not finding anything to change my mind. Jogurney (talk) 15:47, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep above refs are sufficient to pass GNG. I disagree with some of JoelleJay's assessment, particularly dismissing sources that include Q&A interviews along with some additional content. Frank Anchor 20:38, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Frank Anchor, what "additional content"? None of those sources contain sufficient independent, secondary commentary by the interviewers to count towards even BASIC, and certainly none of them meet NSPORT's strict requirements for a full GNG source, which has still not been identified:

3: JSMB midfielder Belkacem Niati has returned to his old team, after successfully achieving the goal of joining CABBA. Being among the last elements to have joined the workforce ... Docked during the resumption session on Wednesday afternoon, the middle of the JSMB returned to the Hammam Bourguiba course and the preparation that the players have made so far.

4: The master of the band in Bouakkez, Belkacem Nitai, who has already won this cup with the CRB...

10: Niati Belkacem, with his experience, goes in this direction by declaring that we will have to be patient and wait a few games, before being able to judge the team.

11: The CABBA defector, Belkacem Niati, had a first-class game against the RCK. Moreover, he was behind the penalty obtained in the last minutes of the match, giving the victory for the JSMB.

12: Against the USMBA, Belkacim Niati scored his eighth goal of the season, making him his team's best scorer this season.

13: The midfielder of JSM Béjaïa, Belkacem Niati, was angry at the end of the match which opposed his team to CR Belouizdad, yesterday, after the defeat (2-0) but especially the goal disallowed by the referee who played in favor of the Algiers. (This is really primary/non-indy as it is stating Niati's feelings rather than offering the author's analysis; at any rate, it's not encyclopedic content anyway.)

14: The technical staff of the JSMB will certainly rely on key elements such as midfielder Belkacem Niati to win the big derby the day after tomorrow against the MOB. JoelleJay (talk) 21:11, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
My interpretation is that relevant content summarizing the interviews, however brief, is enough to get this particular topic past GNG. Especially when there are so many sources covering different aspects of the subject in this way. Frank Anchor 13:28, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Frank Anchor, as an interviewee's responses are indisputably primary and non-independent, they cannot contribute to notability, and per WP:PRIMARY only very basic info from them is permitted in a wikipedia article. This is outlined further in WP:OR, which includes interviews among several examples of primary documents. This has been affirmed in numerous biography AfDs:
This close statement: The result was delete. Interviews are primary sources so the delete argument is the policy based one.

AfD nominations by admins
here: This article on a tattoo artist is sourced mainly from interviews. Being primary sources, they don't help us establish his notability. (A !voter further states The interview in the magazine - can't assess it.... So even if the [interview] contains a lot of independent information (doubt it plus a niche source), Rojas would not pass the WP:GNG based on what I found.)

here: WP:BLP of a radio personality and podcaster, referenced entirely to WP:PRIMARYSOURCES and Q&A interviews that cannot support notability

and here: There are interviews, and a number of performance listings but nothing independent

Deletion rationales
here: So far I am seeing numerous interviews but little in the way of WP:SECONDARY sources.... I would like to see pretty much any of the people voting Keep put forth WP:THREE best sources (that aren't interviews) to demonstrate that this article is unequivocally notable beyond a shadow of a doubt.

source analysis here

discussion here: The first and third links are short, primary source interviews. The second link is kind of nothing. Please have a look at secondary sources.

here: I disagree with the statement "...sources are in depth, reliable and independent. That a quote comes from her father doesn't make the source doing the quoting "not independent" in any way". The quote comes from Reem ("according to Reem...") -- this is the definition of a non-independent source. Interviews in general are not SIGCOV sources for the purpose of establishing notability.

here: The Ynaija interview only quotes Mr. Israel and does not add any independent research. As such it is effectively a self-published source and not verifiable.

see also here, here, and here. JoelleJay (talk) 18:49, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:35, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sources are brief mentions and he had a brief, brief career. Perhaps a redirect to the club? If this was an MLB player, I'd perhaps redirect to the 2016-2017 season for that ball club, but this soccer team doesn't have such extensive season articles. Oaktree b (talk) 02:57, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

He definitely did not have a "brief, brief career", he had over 160+ appeanrces in the fully pro Algerian top flight/second tier and was a 2017-18 Algerian Cup winner (see 17). Thanks, Das osmnezz (talk) 07:04, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - blatant failure of WP:GNG and anything else related. Those "sources" are just passing references and are not WP:RS at all: I can't stop reminding you all that quality is far more important than quantity when we talk about sources. Angelo (talk) 23:10, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.