Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Battle of Orsha (1943-1944)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. and rename to Orsha offensives (1943). I've tweaked the article and the dates, someone more knowledgeable might want to look at it further (Orsa/Orsha?) Black Kite (t) (c) 22:34, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Battle of Orsha (1943−1944)[edit]

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Completing nomination for IP. Jujutacular ^talk 04:21, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Looking through the articles history, since its inception in early 2010, no inline citations have been provided to support the article. A single book has been provided but not in English nor have any page numbers be used to allow authenticating even any of the article with the source; a major breech of Wikipedia guidelines. In addition tags have been in place for over two months further reinforcing this point and no action has been taken by the article’s creator or major contributors to improve the quality or coverage since then.

The unsourced information provided in the lede in regards to the strategic effects of Germany not being able to redeploy forces south is at odds with the sourced information in the background section of the Operation Bagration where it states Germany did so as this where they expected the Soviet summer offensive to come from.

Maps provided on other eastern front articles i.e. Bagration show Orsha being well behind the German frontline prior to the Soviet summer 1944 offensive and the online Russian presentation of the Great Patriotic War show no offensive being launched in the general area during the dates provided in the article, thus raising concern. Google searches do not find anything that relates to the specific winter battle this article describes and the two month old orphan tag makes one lean towards the opinion the article is some form of hoax hence i believe a discussion should be opened on AFD.

Regards86.4.81.225 (talk) 01:57, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Although there does seem to have been a Battle of Orsha, the facts don't seem to fit this article. See this Google search and this forum discussion which has a scan and translation of a book. Both of these sources place the battle in June 1944, not the winter of 43-44. Dougweller (talk) 05:05, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. I am not knowledgable enough to say whether or not this is a hoax, but it is at least wildly inaccurate. The claim of over half a million soviet casualties, if true, would surely be easily verifiable but searches are not turning up anything on this alleged battle. The user who created this article is blocked indefinitely for creating disruption after being challenged in several other articles for similar exaggerations. The "literature" cited is available on google books in snippet view but nothing is returned in a search for "Orsha". Admittedly, none of this conclusively proves the battle did not exist but even if it did it would be preferable to wipe this dubious article and let someone write a better one from scratch. SpinningSpark 09:45, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Leaning to Rename to Orsha offensives (1943). There were three failed Orsha Operations (Oct. 12-18, Oct. 21-26, Nov. 14-19 1943) - continuation of the larger Operation Suvorov, followed by (also failed) offensives against Vitebsk and Bogushev, and another Orsha offensive in the beginning of 1944. David Glantz called these events, combined, the 1st Belorussian Offensive [1]. This would make a fine merge target ... if it existed in English wikipedia. Bagration was something completely different; why it pops up in discussing the events of 1943 is beyond comprehension. Whether the three Orsha offensives need to (or may) be combined into one article (as in, for example, ru:Оршанская наступательная операция) is not an AFD matter. But the nominator is correct - for obvious reasons Soviet historiography stayed aside from this debacle, and the Western historians followed suit. The finest sources are in German. East of Borschov 11:34, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We have 1st Belorussian Front. We also have Vitebsk–Orsha Offensive which is 1944, part of Operation Bagration. Dougweller (talk) 12:56, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Correct, and both are irrelevant. Events and formations of 1944 are only distantly related to events of 1943. By this logic, the Dieppe Raid should be incorporated into Operation Overlord, should it not? Both happened somewhere in France. East of Borschov 18:23, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, you're right. I seem to be dwelling on the 1944 Battle of Orsha still, which does seem to have been a real one. Dougweller (talk) 18:37, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Just a note to say the author of this article User:Blablaaa has been blocked and would have been unable to add references or comment here. Saying that he did not make any attempt to rectify the tags when still active. --Jim Sweeney (talk) 11:59, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 01:34, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Rename as per East of Borschov. Good work for looking into this closely. Buckshot06 (talk) 04:34, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - unless references can be added to demonstrate its notability and to prove the reliability of its content, which has been seriously challenged. Anotherclown (talk) 20:16, 1 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
currently iam blocked, so i cant take part in the deletion discussion. This battle is relevant. All informations regarding this battle are out "Das deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg Vol 8." . Numbers are also out of this book. In my opinion there is no doubt about the relevanz of this battle. The scope alone; several hundred thousand soldiers took part. But there is an issue with lemma, this period of eastern front especially around Orsha is bad researched and so its hard to find a good lemma for it. Perhaps somebody finds a better article name. A combination with other operations in this area is possible. This battle has nothing to do with Operation Bagration.... Maybe somebody is so kind to copy my text to the discussion Blablaaa (talk) 07:11, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Copied from Blablaaa's talk page. Parsecboy (talk) 09:08, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This article needs expert review and solid inline references. With the vast amounts of books on WWII, there shouldn't be a problem with verifying the facts. Obviously, if it is a hoax or woefully inaccurate, than speedy delete. -- P 1 9 9 • TALK 16:42, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.