Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Autocrat, LLC

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep in some form or another. A merge can be discussed separately if required. So Why 14:54, 20 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Autocrat, LLC[edit]

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Considering the only available information and sources here are published or republished announcements or notices, none of it could ever actually establish our meaning of independent reliable and significant coverage' if the current sources here: 1 is company website, 2 is an indiscriminate guide-like announcement, 3 is a cookbook (specifically applied is WP:Not a cookbook and WP:Not guide; in fact, all there is, a sentence resembling their own "About"), 4 is a travel guide, 5 is a company "About" page, 6 is a local news article about a local business and 7 and 8 are a business announcement (first: "announced this week....says [company] president....$8.49 and $8.99" and then "Narragansett announced...."), and 9 is an indiscriminate trade publisher. That's also considering when there's still clear connections to the company itself in the others:

"chatted with Mark Hellendrung, Narragansett’s CEO....inspiration was all about partnership....[he] began to think....[He] called....Customers can expect....Eager patrons....can find it for a limited time....[CEO] work for delicious, boozy currency".

Now, to actually consider what else could be available is this and this which shows similar cases: 1-3, 10, are local business articles saying locally-targeted information of interest, 4 and 8 are a press release, 5-6 are trade publishers, 7 is a job listing and 9 is a currently cited source; nothing found here is of course the independent reliable and significant coverage needed and mainspace is certainly not the place for salvaging it. Ⓩⓟⓟⓘⓧ _Talk 20:50, 1 August 2017 (UTC) Ⓩⓟⓟⓘⓧ _Talk 20:50, 1 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions. Ⓩⓟⓟⓘⓧ _Talk 20:51, 1 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. Ⓩⓟⓟⓘⓧ _Talk 20:51, 1 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Rhode Island-related deletion discussions. Ⓩⓟⓟⓘⓧ _Talk 20:51, 1 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Companies-related deletion discussions. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 21:28, 1 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 21:28, 1 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Keep or Merge to Coffee milk § Coffee syrup, which will improve the merge target article per WP:ATD-M. Autocrat is a major producer of coffee syrup. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 21:30, 1 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Upon revisiting the discussion, changed my !vote above to "keep or merge". North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 16:09, 5 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Delete as promotional advertising is never kept even if in history logs, because this is still against our fundamental policies since WP:Deletion policy (ATD is a subsection), begins with do not meet the relevant criteria for content of the encyclopedia are identified and removed and that is exactly what applies here and so, a moot matter, any exceptions barred since they're not relevant. Also, it's unlikely that someone would actually search a local company first in an encyclopedia instead of actually searching a fitting term instead such as coffee creamer, coffeemaker, etc. since those are likelier to actually be used; since the article iself says, it's a local company so we're not an WP:Indiscriminate collection of that. SwisterTwister talk 21:51, 1 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment – The article does not have a promotional tone at all, and provides a neutrally-worded overview about the company. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 22:36, 1 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Merge and Redirect to coffee milk at minimum. There are enough sources available to justify as much, and as the far and away largest producer of coffee milk it makes sense to cover it there. That said, I'd be surprised if there weren't enough sources available on this 120+ year old company that popularized and continues to be the dominant producer of a particular drink that happens to be the state drink of RI (granted, this factoid doesn't mean anything on its own given it doesn't mean there's anything more than local coverage/interest). I hope to have time to do a proper dig for sources in the coming days. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 05:31, 2 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.
1. Coelho, Jamie (2015-11-23). "How Autocrat Has Changed With the Times. The legendary local company is now owned by the British company Finlays". Rhode Island Monthly. Retrieved 2017-08-02.
  The article notes:
  
  A glass display case hangs near the receptionist’s desk inside the former Autocrat in Lincoln, now renamed Finlay Extracts and Ingredients USA. Rows of Autocrat artifacts are lined up on three shelves, the oldest ones from when the business was first founded as Brownell and Field Company in 1895. There are tin boxes that once held tea and coffee and old-fashioned glass bottles of coffee syrup, including Eclipse, which Autocrat acquired in 1991. Above the exhibit, a large flat-screen TV rotates images and infographics featuring tea leaves and green coffee beans along with background information about Finlays. It’s a mix of historic relics mingling with new technology that tell the story of how the traditional company evolved from the early twentieth century and into the future.
  Autocrat had been family owned and operated for four generations from 1895 up until 2014, when co-owners Richard M. Field Jr. and his sister, Cynthia Field Wall, sold it to the British company, James Finlay Limited. In July of this year, Autocrat changed its name to Finlays, though retail products, including Autocrat coffee and coffee syrup, still maintain the same Autocrat branding. The stone-carved Autocrat sign that once greeted drivers from the road on Blackstone Valley Place has been replaced by a clean and modern Finlays logo with dangling tea leaves.
  ...
  Like many successful companies, Autocrat has been reengineered many times. It was established in 1895 under the name Brownell and Field Company as a wholesale food business that sold a wide variety of canned food items and cigars. When it got into the canned coffee business, Field’s great-grandfather, Frank O. Field, named the coffee line Autocrat after a series of essays that appeared in Atlantic Monthly, “The Autocrat of the Breakfast Table,” written by Oliver Wendell Holmes Sr. He wanted his coffee to rule the breakfast table with “undisputed influence.” The company continued under Richard M. Field Jr.’s grandfather, and when he died, it was up to his father, Richard M. Field, and his uncles, Russell W. Field and Frank O. Field, to take over after coming back from war. “My father and my uncle both had engineering degrees,” says Richard M. Field Jr. “I don’t think they had any vision of working in the family business, but since the company was there and they needed some help, they got in and worked for the family business.”
  It was at this point in the 1950s that the brothers decided to sell off the wholesale food sector and concentrate only on retail tea and coffee. Brownell and Field was later renamed Autocrat after the coffee line. But as coffee prices began to soar in the ’70s, Maxwell House and Folgers got into a price war, and Autocrat failed to keep up in the grocery store aisles. The family refused to market a lesser quality product to increase profits. “Generally, they were adding substantial quantities of low-grade robust coffee, which is a very strong flavor. Their marketing idea suggested to the consumer, ‘I can use less coffee to make the same good cup,’ ” says Field. “We refused to come up with low-grade coffee and sell it at a cheaper price. You can dispute whether that was smart or not. It sounds great and ethical, but at the end of the day, it was very hurtful to the company.”
2. Miller-Medzon, Karyn (1995-07-19). "Colder is better Coffee's big guns and small take an icy turn". Boston Herald. Archived from the original on 2017-08-02. Retrieved 2017-08-02.
  The article notes:
  
  Another coffee drink long consumed by Rhode Islanders, but making headway in Massachusetts is coffee milk, made with coffee syrups produced by the Autocrat company in Lincoln, R.I.
  Named by Rhode Island Monthly Magazine as the best product made in the state, the sweet syrup (which comes under the names Autocrat and Eclipse) is the key ingredient in the popular Rhode Island coffee cabinet - a drink which combines vanilla ice cream, milk and coffee syrup.
  The company also sells its products to Garelick Farms and Nature's Best dairies, which market Eclipse and Autocrat coffee milks. In Massachusetts, the coffee-infused drinks and syrups are available at Shaw's, Purity Supreme and Stop 'N Shop.
3. Zuckoff, Mitchell (1985-10-06). "Coffee Syrup Is Unique R.I. Treat". Miami Herald. Associated Press. Retrieved 2017-08-02.
  The article notes:
  
  Coffee syrup is a taste sensation virtually unsampled and unheralded outside Rhode Island and the neighboring southeastern Massachusetts cities of New Bedford and Fall River.
  "I wish I knew why it's just here. ... and it's not ethnic, money or anything else," said Frank Field, president of Autocrat Syrup Co. of North Providence. Autocrat and Eclipse Food Products Corp. of Warwick are coffee syrup's leading purveyors.
  ...
  Eclipse and Autocrat estimate the amount of all brands of coffee syrup sold each year would make more than 6 million glasses of coffee milk. That includes the grade school-size, half-pint cartons sold at stores all around Rhode Island. Just under a million people live in Rhode Island.
  ...
  The local syrup business has been good to Eclipse, which was founded in 1914, and for Autocrat, which has been selling syrup for 35 years since buying Arabian Syrup Co., founded in 1908.
4. Roberts, Nancy (1993-08-11). "Coffee Milk, Anyone?". Philadelphia Daily News. Associated Press. Archived from the original on 2017-08-02. Retrieved 2017-08-02.
  The article notes:
  
  "It's just been a product that seems to have taken hold here in the Rhode Island area," said Cynthia Wall, part-owner of Autocrat Inc., the largest maker of coffee milk. "We have tried to promote it outside . . . but it's difficult to get it off the ground. It's such an unusual product."
5. Morrow, Sabine (2013-05-16). "Where can I find it?". The Atlanta Journal-Constitution. Archived from the original on 2017-08-02. Retrieved 2017-08-01.
  The article notes:
  
  Autocrat is the gold standard for coffee syrups and has been a Rhode Island favorite since 1930. Autocrat wasn’t without competition from Eclipse, which made a similar product, but pretty much took care of that pesky problem by buying out the company. Today, Autocrat offers both coffee syrups.
6. Lefebvre, Rochelle (2014-04-29). "Autocrat in Lincoln sold to UK company". WPRI-TV. Archived from the original on 2017-08-02. Retrieved 2017-08-02.
  The article notes:
  
  A Rhode Island coffee company, known for its famous coffee syrup, has been sold to a business in the United Kingdom.
  James Finlay Limited has purchased Autocrat, LLC for an undisclosed amount of money.
  Autocrat, which is headquartered in Lincoln, is a leader in coffee extracts. Finlays is known for its tea supply chain.
  Both businesses have been operating independently for more than 100 years.
7. Hackett, David; Rab, Lisa; Saewitz, Mike; Traylor, Nancy; Whittle, Patrick (2004-12-15). "Sweet syrup migrates here". Sarasota Herald-Tribune. Archived from the original on 2017-08-02. Retrieved 2017-08-02.
  The article notes:
  
  Since 1895, Autocrat has sold its wares to residents of Rhode Island and eastern Massachusetts, but it has remained a local phenomenon.
  The Rhode Island Legislature even named coffee milk, a coffee-flavored cousin to chocolate milk, the Ocean State's official drink in 1993.
  ...
  Bottles of Autocrat coffee syrup are emblazoned with a picture of a small bird and the signature phrase, "A swallow will tell you."
8. Nunes, Tony (2012-06-03). "Sweet & simple - Dave's roasts up an organic coffee syrup". The Westerly Sun. Archived from the original on 2017-08-02. Retrieved 2017-08-02.
  The article notes:
  
  Coffee syrup was invented in the 1930s by the Autocrat company, a family-owned business in Lincoln, and the world's leading producer to this day. Its syrup has five ingredients: high fructose corn syrup, corn syrup, coffee, water and caramel color, plus potassium sorbate, a preservative.
9. Beaulieu, Linda (2012) [2006]. Providence & Rhode Island Cookbook: Big Recipes from the Smallest State. Guilford, Connecticut: Globe Pequot Press. p. 265. ISBN 0762792809. Retrieved 2017-08-02.
  The book notes:
  
  When it comes to coffee syrup, this is perhaps the only coffee-flavored item that has Rhode Islanders divided. You see, some of us were brought up on the darker, thicker, more coffee taste of Eclipse coffee syrup, while others grew up sipping on Autocrat, often described as thin and sweet. Eclipse—the first coffee syrup available for retail sale—was made by a company famous for its marshmellows back in 1914. The Autocrat Coffee Company, a fourth-generation family business now based in Lincoln, acquired the Eclipse label in 1991 and continues to produce both kinds of syrup, which are sold in all Rhode Island supermarkets. Autocrat sells enough coffee syrup in Rhode Island, with a population of about 1 million to make 20 million servings of coffee milk each year.
10. Harris, Patricia; Lyon, David (2013). Food Lovers' Guide to Rhode Island: The Best Restaurants, Markets & Local Culinary Offerings. Guilford, Connecticut: Globe Pequot Press. p. 102. ISBN 076279366X. Retrieved 2017-08-02.
  The book notes:
  
  Every Rhode Islander is familiar with Autocrat coffee syrup— the de rigueur ingredient for transforming plain cow's milk into the magic elixir of the smallest state.
11. Ried, Adam (2009). Thoroughly Modern Milkshakes. New York: W. W. Norton & Company. p. 89. ISBN 0393068773. Retrieved 2017-08-02.
  The book notes:
  
  Supremacy in the world of Rhode Island coffee syrups is a matter of considerable debate. Three top brands, Autocrat, Eclipse, and Coffee Time, all made locally in Rhode Island, of course, have passionate devotees. Generally, Autocrat is considered to be the sweetest of the three; Eclipse and Coffee Time are thought to have a stronger coffee flavor. Now all three syrups are produced in Lincoln, Rhode Island, by Autocrat, Inc., a company that dates back to 1895.
12. Petro, Pamela (1998). The Newport & Narragansett Bay Book: A Complete Guide With Block Island. Lee, Massachusetts: Berkshire House Publishers. p. 169. ISBN 0936399937. Retrieved 2017-08-02.
  The book notes:
  
  Invented by the Autocrat Company in 1895 and again by Eclipse Foods in 1914, coffee syrup is like sweet liquid gold. Both brands are still available, but are now manufactured by the same people (Autocrat).
13. Lukas, Paul (2002-11-13). "The Big Flavors Of Little Rhode Island". The New York Times. Archived from the original on 2017-08-02. Retrieved 2017-08-02.
  The article notes:
  
  The classic beverage at hot wiener shops -- and at most other Rhode Island restaurants -- is coffee milk, which is like chocolate milk but is made with coffee syrup. Cynthia Wall, vice president of Autocrat, a coffee producer in the Providence area, traced coffee milk's origins back to the 1930's, when enterprising diner and drugstore operators sweetened leftover coffee grounds with milk and sugar, creating a slurry extract that became as popular with children as hot coffee was with adults.
  Ms. Wall said the first coffee syrup available for retail sale was a Warwick-based brand called Eclipse, which made its debut in 1938 and became known for the slogan You'll smack your lips when it's Eclipse. Autocrat soon followed with its own version and later acquired Eclipse. The syrups were instant hits, presaging a statewide love affair with the coffee-sugar-dairy combination. (Rhode Island is among the national leaders in coffee ice cream consumption, and supermarkets offer a locally produced coffee gelatin dessert mix.)
  With coffee milk a ubiquitous presence on menus and Autocrat -- now a fourth-generation family business -- still making coffee syrup for grocery sale, it's tempting to think of coffee milk as the unofficial state drink. Except that it's actually the official state drink, having been so designated by the Legislature in 1993.
14. Strutner, Suzy; Orchant, Rebecca (2017-05-12). "Coffee Milk Is Rhode Island's Secret Local Drink You've Got To Try". The Huffington Post. Archived from the original on 2017-08-02. Retrieved 2017-08-02.
  The article notes:
  
  Coffee milk is kind of Rhode Island’s answer to New York’s egg cream. The combination of sweet coffee syrup and milk is enjoyed at all hours of the day, and no brand is as ubiquitous as Autocrat Syrup. Autocrat showed up on the scene in the 1930s, shortly after the launch of their main competitor, Eclipse. The decades-long rivalry came to an end in 1991, when Autocrat purchased Eclipse, and the company still produces both labels to this day. It also produces a third brand, Coffee Time Syrup, whose label design we love and which it sells mainly to markets outside Rhode Island. They’re all the same formula ― corn syrup, coffee extract and colors ― and we suspect they taste generally the same, though Coffee Time is advertised as having a stronger coffee taste than the others. Rhodies? Care to weigh in?
15. Tucker, Aimee (2017-02-06). "Rhode Island Coffee Milk". New England. Yankee Publishing, Inc. Archived from the original on 2017-08-02. Retrieved 2017-08-02.
  The article notes:
  
  Rhode Islanders have been slurping up coffee milk from local brands with gusto since the late 1930’s, when first Eclipse (based in Warwick) and then Autocrat (based in Lincoln) began selling bottles of the sugary, slightly-caffeinated syrup. In 1991, the “coffee syrup wars” finally ended when Autocrat purchased their long-time competitor, but rather than absorbing one brand into the other, they just keep making both. Actually, they make three. A third label, Coffee Time Syrup, is mostly sold to markets outside of Rhode Island. And in case you were wondering if they all taste the same, die-hard coffee milk fans will tell you (or they told me) that Autocrat is just a little bit sweeter.
  ...
  And if, by chance, you want your coffee milk and Narragansett beer together, the latter debuted a limited-edition Autocrat Coffee Milk Stout in 2013, blending the brand’s bittersweet milk stout with dark Autocrat coffee.
There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Autocrat to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".
Cunard (talk) 07:59, 2 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Key part of that statement is "that are independent". References that almost exclusively rely information from the company or its officers is not independent and those references fail WP:ORGIND and/or WP:CORPDEPTH. As has been pointed out to you on several occasions in the past which you ignore by filling up AfD's with extensive unacceptable quotes. This is starting to become a problem. Please stop. -- HighKing⁺⁺ 12:43, 16 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

How can any of this actually be independent for WP:NPOV and WP:N if it says:

"In its office....Autocrat had been family owned and operated....[says company executive]....", "....whose label design we love and which it sells....", "mostly sold to markets outside of...."...."And if, by chance, you want....debuted a limited-edition Autocrat Coffee Milk Stout" (this one especially violates WP:Not guide since it says articles should not tell the reader how to or not do something, "Autocrat showed....Autocrat purchased....Three top brands....have passionate devotees....", "...Autocrat is considered to be the sweetest ^[who?]...."' (or else it's simply suggestive speculated preference), "de rigueur ingredient for....Autocrat...", '"has been sold to a business....both businesses have been operating...." (this is essentially a public relations quote, therefore WP:Not webhost), '"Autocrat estimate the amount of all brands....", "The local business has been good to Autocrat....", 'The company also sells its products....which markets the Autocrat milks....". All of this essentially includes WP:Not cookbook since it cares to actually state what is used and how, and WP:Five pillars is exclusively clear on this not being what belongs in encyclopedia. Adding to this, is WP:Deletion policy: pages that do not meet the relevant criteria for content of the encyclopedia are identified and removed and any other content not suitable for an encyclopedia. How would, we as an encyclopedia, interpret it as anything else if it mentions it repeatedly and WP:What Wikipedia is not is a founded policy? Also, to actually quote the WP:GNG, it says A topic is presumed to be notable if It is not excluded under the What Wikipedia is not policyand This is not a guarantee that a topic will necessarily be handled as a separate, stand-alone page. Articles must be in an acceptable condition, and since we have numerous violations here, how can we interpret it as any different? Or else we would be biased in allowing certain subjects for the sake of general interest, which isn't what a WP:NPOV encyclopedia is. SwisterTwister talk 21:25, 2 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - the company is recognized as the leading brand in a drink category that not only has its own Wikipedia article, but is the state drink of Rhode Island. I just added two sources to the lede verifying the company's status, and along with the national coverage posted by Cunard above, this meets my notability standards. Can't wait to try a Narragansett coffee beer! TimTempleton ^(talk) ^(cont) 21:36, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Timtempleton Which policy is this? Because the current policy concerns are WP:What Wikipedia is not and WP:Deletion policy. And note that WP:GNG or WP:N are not policies, and reading the WP:GNG and WP:N, no one it ever says "recognized as the leading brand in a drink category" is a factor, instead what we actually need is independent reliable significant news independent of the subject, and the sources offered are still only local advertorials, announcements or notices. Also, I vigilantly analyzed the sources above, showing they're unacceptable. Can you offer any input into that? We've quite rarely actually accepted an article on the sole basis of a state drink, and WP:GNG and WP:N never mentioned this at all. SwisterTwister talk 06:18, 5 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

At this point it's common sense. The closing editor will hopefully recognize that. TimTempleton ^(talk) ^(cont) 06:24, 5 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

timtempleton, what independent third party evidence do we have from outside the region that "leading brand in a drink category" is in fact the case, and what evidence that coffe emilk is a major drink category in the first place? The only one I see is Huffington Post, which is almost never a reliable source for Notability, as its associated writers print whatever they care to--which is very often hyperbola. And if one subdivides the industry categories far enough, it's easy to reach levels of leading that don't imply notability. Furthermore, judging by List of U.S. state beverages, stae beverage is is not a significant award or feature of government. DGG ( talk ) 01:56, 6 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

For the former, it's in the sources Cunard linked. The company produces far and away most of the coffee syrups used in coffee milk. That's not to say it's a "major drink category" (not that I'm aware of any clear definition of such a designation) because it's consumed almost entirely in the northeastern US (where Autocrat is based). I'm not sold it should be a stand-alone article, either, but meh. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 05:25, 6 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Thoughts about keep standalone vs. merge to coffee milk? There is no consensus to delete at this time but the discussion seems divided with regards to keep or merge.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ♠PMC♠ (talk) 00:05, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - The references in the article are sufficient to show notability, but it would be nice if someone added content based on Cunard's comment.--Rpclod (talk) 01:41, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, and replace by an article on the history of the firm. The present article is advertising, but the firm is notable. Since advertising is never permitted on Wikipdia, the entire contents must be deleted, and if I were seeing this as a first impression, by Speedy G11. Cunard's references show the long history of the firm notable, so he or someone else could write a NPOV article. In terms of keeping the present article, all of his work is irrelevant. Improving somewhat promotional articles on notable firms can be justified in some cases where the notability is very high and the promotionalism minor or easily removable, but keeping an article that is nothing but promotional never is. If kept, I shall do what I can with the contents, but there really is no excuse for keeping advertising in the article history. So all the arguments about notability are totally besides the point. WP:NOT is basic policy. People who want to keep advertising in WP have a solution ready at hand, they can take the present content, fork it, and add whatever they want. Even simpler, they could just use the googles, prepared at enormous expense by paid staff from material produced at enormous cost by paid advertising firms. And then they couldstop interfering with the unpaid amateurs who want to build a NPOV encyclopedia. DGG ( talk ) 05:38, 16 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment – The article was recently copy edited by another user after the above !vote was posted (diff). The article does not have a promotional tone at this time, and provides a neutral overview of the company based upon what reliable sources state about it. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 22:49, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Merge - there's really not enough right now for a separate article, unless somebody wants to rescue it. Bearian (talk) 17:43, 16 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.