Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Astros-Mariners rivalry

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎. Black Kite (talk) 10:59, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Astros-Mariners rivalry

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Astros-Mariners rivalry (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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Just because two teams play in the same division does not make them "rivals". A couple headlines reading they "don't like each other" or fanblogs calling them "rivals" does not establish that they are indeed "rivals" to the point of having their own dedicated page. Instead, it's WP:FANCRUFT; there is no WP:LASTING impact from the situation on July 26, 2021, for instance. See WP:INDISCRIMINATE and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Astros–Braves rivalry for a similar discussion. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:52, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Baseball-related deletion discussions. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:52, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Texas and Washington. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 20:21, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. The closest thing that comes to a RS talking about a rivalry is the Seattle Times article and the context of that is within a singular season. Skipple ☎ 20:51, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
• Delete per nom and below analysis of all the sources currently in the article. The only source one that might pass WP:GNG is the WP:LOCAL Seattle Times article referenced above. Most either don’t even describe the teams as “rivals” or use the term once or twice in the way any two teams could be described as competitors. Frank Anchor 00:00, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Source analysis by User:Frank Anchor

Source assessment by User:Frank Anchor Source Comments HOU vs. SEA WP:ROUTINE list of head-to-head records N More Mariners bad blood with Astros: Why benches cleared again WP:LOCAL coverage (though not directly affiliated with either team). Coverage of a benches-clearing brawl between the two teams. Only mentions the term "rival" once in a routine description of the teams being from the same division. N Rivalry renewal WP:LOCAL coverage (though not directly affiliated with either team). Article suggests an "on-and-off" rivalry between the two teams but also recognizes the teams lack geographical proximity and "bad blood" generally found in a rivalry. N Mariners and Astros don’t like each other. Now they’ll play for a spot in the ALCS Local coverage (though not affiliated with either team). Probably the closest to passing WP:GNG for establishing a rivalry between the two clubs of any of the sources provided. While the source does not use the term "rivalry" or "rivals," it describes some recent history between the two teams. Probably a borderline pass of GNG, but not enough on its own. Y Seattle Mariners Make History in Win Over Houston Astros on Saturday Routine postgame coverage N The AL West Is the Best Divisional Race in Baseball Describes the divisional race in the AL West. Does not describe the Astros and Mariners as rivals. N Astros Musings: The Biggest Rivals in 2017 One fan-blogger's prediction that a rivalry may develop between the two teams for the 2017 season. N A brief history of the Mariners-Astros time Non-independent article from a blog-site that calls itself "a Seattle Mariners community." Routine coverage of the two teams' series against each other which could be used to describe a series between any two teams. Describes "how good an Astros-Mariners rivalry could be good for baseball" but does nothing to establish a rivalry currently exists between the two teams. N Astros lefty Brooks Raley suspended three games, manager Dusty Baker one Routine coverage of discipline issued for a brawl. Does nothing to suggest a rivalry exists between the two teams. N Benches clear in 9th, Servais tossed as Mariners beat Astros MLB Highlights Youtube video. Routine highlights. N Mariners Astros FIGHT/BEEF Explained Youtube video. Describes a fight that happened in a game. Fights happen several times a season in MLB. That does not establish a rivalry. N Social Media's Reaction to Monday's Mariners/Astros Benches-Clearing Incident Reactions to an in-game fight. Coverage does not describe teams as "rivals" N Seattle Mariners vs Houston Astros: ALDS Preview Routine preview of a playoff series. Mentions "bad blood" exists between the two teams but does not make any effort to describe a rivalry between the two teams. N Mariners Breakdown: ALDS reaction, what’s next, message to Astros Local coverage (though not affiliated with either team). Post-playoff series report that uses the term "rivalry" in a routine way that could describe a series between any two teams as being a rivalry. N 'We’ve got to play a lot better': Astros being tested Non-independent article posted by MLB. Does not describe the two teams as "rivals." N Mariners 3, Astros 1: Houston's bats struggle in dropping series finale Local coverage (though not affiliated with either team). Routine postgame report. N "Mariners 7, Astros 8 Final Score Non-independent routine box score N Mariners 2, Astros 4 Final Score Non-independent routine box score N Astros 1, Mariners 0 Final Score Non-independent routine box score N

• Keep I found this article from MLB.com that perfectly sums up how both the Houston Astros & the Seattle Mariners are rivals. Charlesaaronthompson (talk) 03:54, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Coverage must be both independent and significant in order to pass WP:GNG and this particular article is neither. It lacks independence as it is published by MLB, and it lacks significance because it is a a single paragraph that describes a recent playoff series between the two teams, does not describe any animosity between the teams, and only uses the term "rivalry" in the title (likely as a buzzword to manufacture hype). Frank Anchor 12:11, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

"The spiciest rivalries in MLB right now, division by division". This reads as fan cruft. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:27, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Natg 19 (talk) 05:28, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

• Delete per Frank Anchor's source analysis and lack of independent coverage. Not every divisional rivalry needs a Wikipedia page. Qwaiiplayer (talk) 14:57, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
• Delete. I think there's more potential here than some of the other cruftier rivalry articles, but this doesn't quite cut it as of yet. There's not a huge history between the teams, and as a result this is mostly just a description of games from 2021 and 2022. Try again in a few years. Nohomersryan (talk) 19:15, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

• Keep Hang on a Second Gentlemen, I’ve found two other articles outlining the rivalry. Regardless of the depth in history, it seems to be an upstart divisional rivalry. 1. [1]

2. [2] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:8001:2E07:2D00:B1E7:A021:6677:B211 (talk) 22:01, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

The WSJ page is paywalled but an article that has "most lopsided rivalry" in the title and talks about how much one team has obliterated another team during a single season is not WP:SIGCOV of a rivalry N (if anyone has more input of the full text, please add it to this discussion). The Sportskeeda page is routine coverage of players getting hit by pitches in games between the two teams. Players get hit by pitches all the time. "Bean-ball wars" in which players on both sides get hit by pitches and fights occur are somewhat common in MLB. That does not establish a rivalry. N Frank Anchor 13:50, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

I was able to view the WSJ article. It does not discuss a rivalry beyond a story about how the Astros beat the Mariners 16 out of 17 times in 2019. Not really a basis for a Wikipedia article about a notable rivalry. Rlendog (talk) 18:16, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

• Delete per Frank Anchor's source analysis (Thank you) could not find enough SIGCOV. Equine-man (talk) 18:00, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.