Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Antoun Sehnaoui

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. NativeForeigner Talk/Contribs 05:33, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Antoun Sehnaoui[edit]

Antoun Sehnaoui (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)
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This BLP appears to fail the notability requirements for people. Checking the 17 footnotes in this article shows them to be generic or not working apart from one blog site (possibly self published). However even if one can assume that the body of the article could be correctly sourced and re-written to be NPOV, Sehnaoui is only notable for being a wealthy investor. Being a company Chairman or on a board does not, of itself, ensure notability in an encyclopaedic sense. Searching Google News I have been unable to find anything to demonstrate the significant impact needed outside of promotional materials for the companies involved (consequently any information would be better merged to articles about the companies, should they be notable per WP:ORG). With regard to the Controversies section, this is currently unsourced but searching for newspaper articles shows only the fact that his bodyguard was arrested would probably be supportable. Again, this is not a rationale for notability. Raising for discussion rather than PROD as the history of the article shows some controversial editing that may need discussion or reveal some notability not made clear so far. Fæ (talk) 21:27, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lebanon-related deletion discussions. -- Fæ (talk) 21:28, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions. -- Fæ (talk) 21:29, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions. -- Fæ (talk) 21:29, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete due to severe problems with sourcing. The article has numerous footnotes, but every one I checked goes to a link that is either broken or doesn't mention the subject. If there are valid sources out there that actually confirm that this person has done what he is claimed to have done, the supporters of this article need to locate them and replace the current non-useful sources with useful ones. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 21:48, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep the man is not only known for his disagreeable public behavior, for being a top figure in the lebanese banking sector but also for his involvement in politics. Sourcing issues can and will be fixed (i'll fix these in the future). As for notability, it surely is there, at least at the regional level, if you run a search for "انطون صحناوي" you'll find that the guy has over 4k entries, many of these are from local newspaper sites (not only forums). I'll fix the citation issues in the future, but improper citation does not justify deletion.Eli+ 22:00, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I just want to be clear that I'm not complaining about citation formatting, like putting the author's name in the wrong place or leaving off a date. I'm talking about a bunch of footnotes that link to either broken pages or pages that don't even mention the subject. And the "Controversies" section raises serious WP:BLP issues in that it accuses the subject of engaging in criminal activity, but that section has no footnotes at all to back it up. I may change my mind if the article gets properly sourced, though. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 22:12, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • The nomination is on the basis of it being unlikely that sources will show notability in the near future, this is a sufficient rationale for deletion against the BLP guidance. When you or anyone else provides reliable sources then this AfD simply becomes moot. Just to clarify, taking the 3 different areas of potential notability you have suggested in turn:
      1. Being a successful business man is not enough for notability, wider significant impact must be demonstrated by the use of independent reliable sources. In particular corporate press releases or magazine articles largely regurgitating press releases are not enough.
      2. Being involved in politics is not enough unless he holds a significant political post or his political activities have generated significant impact. Again, independent reliable sources are needed to prove significant impact. Rehashed campaign materials or blogs will not be acceptable.
      3. His alleged public behaviour is not a rationale for an encyclopaedic article and is likely to stay tangential to any rationale for notability. Fæ (talk) 22:53, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have no time to review the article, i copied it to a sub-page, will fix the issues and bring it bacj later bcs the guy is notable Eli+ 23:07, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, JForget 00:29, 17 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I don't know if he's notable or not; I'm guessing he is but I do see the problem with the need for accurate, useful sources. I'll try to take a look into that issue in more detail tomorrow. However, I did want to post here that I am about to delete the Controversy section. I know that we normally don't want to blank parts of pages that are under AfD, and my intention is not in any way to influence the AfD. However, my understanding of WP:BLP is that negative unsourced information must be removed immediately, no questions asked. This is extremely negative and seems like a potential problem for the project. If I am misinterpreting policy, however, please let me know. Qwyrxian (talk) 10:53, 22 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, someone else did it while I was writing this; in any event, I'm going to note on the talk page that part must remain out of the article until there are reliable sources. Qwyrxian (talk) 10:54, 22 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sources are fairly easy to find, for example:
The Daily Star (Lebanon) March 2, 2010

Businessman in shootout says Sehnaoui responsible

BEIRUT: Businessman Mazen al-Zein responded on Monday to the statement of Societe Generale

de Banque au Liban (SGBL) Chairman, Antoun Sehnaoui concerning the gunfire exchange involving the two. The fight broke out at the White House restaurant in Sodeco in Beirut on Friday between Sehnaoui's bodyguards and the companions of Zein

BEIRUT: Businessman Mazen al-Zein responded on Monday to the statement of Société Générale de Banque au Liban (SGBL) Chairman, Antoun Sehnaoui concerning the gunfire exchange involving the two.

The fight broke out at the White House restaurant in Sodeco in Beirut on Friday between Sehnaoui's bodyguards and the companions of Zein and it led to the injury of two people. Sehnaoui later issued a statement, in which he explained the details of the incident and accused Zein of provoking him.

However, Zein considered Sehnaoui's statement to be false and responded to it in an article published Monday in the Arabic newspaper An-Nahar.

Zein claimed in the statement that Sehnaoui entered the restaurant with a group of armed men and asked him to leave the place.

Upon Zein's refusal and the intervention of restaurant employees, Sehnaoui's bodyguards arbitrarily opened fire to try to disperse the crowd. "Sehnaoui is trying to avoid responsibility," the article said.

"Zein was hit and had three severe wounds that could have led to his death or to lifelong disabilities," it added.

However, Sehnaoui's media office has said that Zein was the one to call on his armed companions to interfere.

Shenaoui had also claimed that Zein worked for a finance company affiliated with SGBL and that he had committed several violations against the company, which led to his dismissal and to taking judicial measures.

Zein did not deny working for the company but denied committing any violations. "Zein was found innocent ... this is something Sehnaoui can't deny," the article said.

Zein also praised the reaction of Justice Minister Ibrahim Najjar to the incident after he had described it as "very dangerous." - The Daily Star

So you may want to add something back to the article about these events even if you think the original text was POV. Fæ (talk) 11:08, 22 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment/Delete?:

In a way the subject is notable but his notability seems mainly coming from his alleged violent behavior. I understand that not all violent people quoted whose acts are in the headlines are deemed notable but in this case, the subject is a Bank's Chairman. In Lebanon he is undoubtly notable. I would nevertheless recommend deletion because I dont think anybody in the Wikipedia universe, except related people, has any interest in writing an objective article. Better no article than the one we are seeing now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.126.24.53 (talk) 13:43, 23 July 2010 (UTC) I need to add that while I was reviewing the footnoes and internet links: They all link to websites of companies owned by the subject's family or his blog. The only link to a press article is a link to Executive Magazine, which according to the article itself, was founded by Antou Sehnaoui. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.126.24.53 (talk) 13:58, 23 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, NativeForeigner Talk/Contribs 05:49, 25 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. The good news is that the WP:BLP-violating unsourced contentious content has been removed from the article. The bad news is that that content was the only interesting thing in the article. I would like to reiterate my "delete" recommendation from two weeks ago on the grounds that the article can be re-created at a later date if someone wants to completely redo the article to provide a balanced article about the subject using valid sources, rather than the current version where the text ignores his controversies and most of the supposed sources don't mention the subject. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 09:00, 25 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Local news coverage of this young banker is insufficient. Author has already agreed to userfy the article and work on it there. Freakshownerd (talk) 02:19, 26 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete After looking over the article, it does appear that we don't have enough non-broken sources to justify a BLP, yet. The most promising qualifications for notability appear to be his founding of the magazine, and the so-called "Oceana Effect." For both of these, though, we need reliable, secondary sources directly attributing these things to the subject, not to the companies he worked with and/or owned. Should the contentious comments become an important issue in Lebanon and be sourceable, then those could also be a source of notability, although they won't be enough as a sole source of notability (per WP:BLP1E). I agree with the above--let the creator take the article back to userspace, find some more sources, and then re-submit once the article is more appropriate. While I'm just a relatively new editor, I'd be glad to help review the author's work later on to determine if/when moving to mainspace is appropriate--Just contact me on my talk page. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:28, 26 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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