Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anti Middle Easterner sentiment

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus.

There is a very incivil comment on the keep side suggesting that some on the delete side "might be harboring racist notions themselves". Comments like that damage the collegiality and good will that is required for Wikipedia to function.

The main argument on the delete side is that the article is a content fork of Anti-Arabism. This has been countered with arguments that not all from the Middle East are Arabs (conversely, not all Arabs are from the Middle East), so it is not entirely obvious that the two articles are covering the same thing even if there might be considerable overlap. Even so, an argument can be made that the sources that mention hatred towards those from the Middle East are really referring to hatred towards Arabs. I took a look at some of the cited sources, [1] and [2], that mention "Middle East" rather than "Arab", and I couldn't truly make my mind up on who is "right" here.

Some of the arguments on the delete side seem superficial (there are many assertions of WP:CONTENTFORK, but rather less evidence, also "I've heard of anti-Arab and Anti-Muslim, but no anti-Middle Eastern." isn't really an argument either.) I also note that the nominator reconsidered his position during the debate.

The issue here remains unresolved, but at the time I cannot really see a firm consensus for deletion. Sjakkalle (Check!) 17:50, 6 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Anti Middle Eastern sentiment[edit]

Anti Middle Eastern sentiment (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

This article is copy/pasted from sections of Anti-Arabism. I do not see any discussion of a split, or any reason why one would be warranted here. However, it does not seem to be unambiguous enough to merit an A10 so I am bringing it here for discussion. VQuakr (talk) 09:11, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Middle East-related deletion discussions. Sir Rcsprinter, Bt (Gimme a message) @ 09:18, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. Sir Rcsprinter, Bt (constabulary) @ 09:19, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ethnic groups-related deletion discussions. Sir Rcsprinter, Bt (babble) @ 09:20, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: As you may see all parts of the article are sourced[3]. You should try to fix the links with making them a direct reference instead trying to delete the page. Anti-Arabism and Anti Middle Easterner sentiment are different. Anti-Arabism is more focused on arabs only but anti middle east is about all the middle eastern people.[4] I think instead of deleting these source you would better to fix them by making them direct sources, and why to delete to whole article? any reason?KhabarNegar (talk) 09:44, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think I understand where you are coming from here - the Anti-Arabism article, when referring to bias occurring outside of the Middle East (especially the USA and Australia - obviously we need to be talking about an area outside of the Middle East for "Anti-Middle Eastern sentiment" to have meaning), does not differentiate between Anti-Arabism, religious discrimination againsts Muslims and Sikhs, and discrimination against people from (or who cosmetically appear to be from) the Middle East such as Iranians and Westerners of Middle Eastern descent. The question is whether it makes sense to have two parallel articles, or whether the scope of Anti-Arabism should be formally expanded (possibly incorporating a title change) to include the scope it already contains. My !vote is still that a single article is merited; if it can be demonstrated that the parallel approach can be done without being a substantial copy then I will consider withdrawing my nomination. VQuakr (talk) 18:57, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The sad part is that there had been an article on "Middle Eastern" Americans, and it had a small and well written section on the subject. The article was deleted several times. If that article still existed, this article might not ever need to have been created in the first place. The Scythian 20:38, 2 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
VQuakr if you respectfully read this article again you will see that there is not a single claim which is related with anti ARAB ISM or anti Islam, Yes in some parts the attacker have used that terms but the reason of actions are all the middle easterner appearances not anything else at all. so this article in its place have no problem being here and not become removed from Wikipedia, because actually there is no reason. Thats It.
Anti-communism, Russophobia, Anti-Slavic sentiment, Anti-Serb sentiment Or we also have Anti-Mexican sentiment & Hispanophobia Or We also have Anti-Christian sentiment, Francophobia, Anti-Western sentiment, Anti-Americanism, Anti-British sentiment, Anti-German sentiment & Anti-Europeanism... So Wikipedia:Don't worry about performance, about the concern about having two parallel articles, we may say they are not two parallel articles, they are "completely" different. you may see that right now. in the current article. Please check the sources right now all the events are directly anti middle eastern things and nothing else, Nothing else at all... please check all the events in current article we are talking about and also check their sources. thank you,:) KhabarNegar (talk) 23:48, 2 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It was written wrong, Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL KhabarNegar (talk) 10:21, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, "Anti Middle Eastern sentiment" does have a few hits. Ping me if this article is rewritten using reliable sources, and I'll consider changing my vote. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:20, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Discrimination-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:03, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete I see no convincing evidence that this article provides anything not already in Anti-Arabism - even though there are reliable sources these terms, they essentially seem to be describing anti-Arab or anti-Muslim sentiment, not a distinct phenomenon.
You are probably not aware of this simple fact, but not everyone who is "Middle Eastern" is an "Arab" nor a "Muslim." Hence the term "Middle Eastern." The Scythian 14:50, 2 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Accusing other editors of ignorance and bigotry won't get you far - please keep it civil. The point being made is that none of the reliable sources are discussing a form of bigotry that is distinct from anti-arab or anti-muslim bigotry. Until a large number of reliable sources distinguish this as a truly unique phenomenon, then it's not worthy of its own article. Nwlaw63 (talk) 18:37, 2 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've been on here for years...Not saying your a racist at all. Just pointing out that the article on racism against Arabs, wouldn't relate to such against Iranians, Israelis, Armenians, Turks, etc. We used to have an article on "Middle Eastern" Americans. The article had a good section on discrimination. The entire article on Middle Eastern Americans, a term recognized by the U.S government, was deleted by editors making the exact same arguments as some here. The article on Anti-Iranian sentiment likewise was called for deletion multiple times in the same fashion. This is getting ridiculous...The truth is, racism against Arabs, Muslims, Middle Easterners and South Asians is generally, though not exclusively, all along the same lines. Arab, Muslim and "Middle Easterner" are terms that get thrown around almost interchangeably. Hence, different articles. Society has not chosen an acceptable term for it yet, but as such, a new "group" has indeed become racialised. Either that, or we create an article with one really long name. That doesn't change the fact that there are SOME editors who would just as see not any article of any name be created, in relation to the subject at hand. The Scythian 20:29, 2 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This Afd is useless, till no reliable reason provided Why this article should be removed?, See: WP:Poll KhabarNegar (talk) 21:27, 1 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Some of the "editors" here simply do not believe/wish the subject to exist. I want the article "fixed," and intend to help do so. It's about time someone created(or recreated?)an article on this subject. It had already been touched upon in the old article on Middle Eastern Americans...But alas, that to was deleted. Twice...By people who felt that as a group, they really didn't exist. The Scythian 20:21, 2 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • STRONG KEEP - Racism against people of Middle Eastern origin in the United States and Europe is a very real phenomenon and undeniable fact. I would imagine that some of those wanting this article deleted, might be harboring racist notions themselves. The Scythian 14:46, 2 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Please review WP:NPA and WP:AGF. No one in these AfD has suggested that this subject does not exist, and no one has expressed an interest in censorship. VQuakr (talk) 18:48, 2 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
An editor already has. People calling for the article to be deleted and not modified = denial that the subject exists. Anyone denying the subject exists, might have a questionable intention. The article badly needs work from the get go, but that is irrelevant here. Just like the article on Talk:Anti-Iranian_sentiment, there is no shortage of relentless editors who do not believe such a subject exists, and intend to have the article deleted to enforce their own world view. That is a fact, and something that an open air encyclopedia like Wikipedia must strongly guard against. The Scythian 20:15, 2 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep (replacing my implicit delete !vote as nominator) and cleanup the split from Anti-Arabism. The article has been expanded significantly from the copy/paste job that existed when I nominated it. The fact is that most of the incidents listed at Anti-Arabism occurring outside of the Middle East probably are examples of Anti-Middle Eastern sentiment (actions which frequently, but only by happenstance are committed against Arabs) as opposed to another Middle Eastern ethnic group. Anti-Arabism probably is a term better reserved for racist actions targeted specifically against Arabs, which I would expect would me more common in places (particularly in the Middle East) where Arabs are part of a mixed Middle Eastern population (examples in the Anti-Arabism article include Iran, Israel, and Niger). In my opinion - for sections in Anti-Arabism about racism in areas such as North America, Great Britain, and Australia - the examples given (whether they happen to be about actions against Arabs or not) belong in Anti-Middle Eastern sentiment, to the point that those sections in Anti-Arabism should be trimmed to a short paragraph with a main tag linking to the appropriate section in Anti-Middle Eastern sentiment.
A couple of final notes - WP:PERF was brought up earlier in the context of "don't worry about repeating information." This is a misapplication of the linked information page. Articles should not contain duplicated information for readability and navigation reasons, not to keep server load low. And, really, stop the accusations of racism. VQuakr (talk) 03:11, 3 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
:) Thanks for the help if you sincerely tell me what part of the article "Exactly" is original research? By the way I really loved your edit summary :) [6], "not quite", that was nice. anyway thanks for voting & please let me know what part is original research, and also please try once again may be you will find a little tiny parts of the article which have sources. Thanks again for voting and thanks in advance for letting us know what part is original research to your point of view. Regards, KhabarNegar (talk) 18:26, 3 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I've tidied up the page a bit and removed parts that were not relevant. I have no particular opinion on whether or not to delete this. Funny Pika! 18:28, 5 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - This doesn't actually exist, the term is "anti-Arabism", the topic of which is already covered at its respective article. This is an unnecessary and unwelcome fork of that, not a standalone, legitimate subject. It seems we go through these sorts of discussions every few months or so, the most recent IIRC at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Israelophobia, with some of the same users who insist on editing disruptively. It may be time to discuss topic bans elsewhere. Tarc (talk) 19:19, 5 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per nom, since it's been cleaned up somewhat (although it still needs work: more RS and less OR). Miniapolis 02:20, 6 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect - This should go back to anti-Arabism because this serves as an unnecessary content fork; it does not seem to be acceptable even under WP:RELART at this point. Yes, the source page needs an overhaul, but their is no need to have two pages dedicated to the same thing under slightly different names. Its like petrol and gasoline, they should not have separate articles. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 14:05, 6 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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