Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anti-communist mass killings

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 18:59, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Anti-communist mass killings[edit]

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There are no scolar references that treat "anti-communist mass killings" as a separate concept. There is not even a pretence of discussion of such a general concept in the article. The whole article is just enumreation of various killings of communists. What is more, in most cases not only communists were killled in the corresponding events, but the whole left wing. Timurite (talk) 17:36, 8 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Scholarly references found at Google scholar:

A Century of Genocide: Critical Essays and Eyewitness Accounts, about the Indonesia slaughters, which the author calls a genocide.[1]
Describing the Indonesia slaughters.The United States and genocide in East Timor. Journal of Contemporary Asia, Volume 11, Issue 1 1981 , pages 44 - 61

Please strike this statement, "There are no scolar (sic) references that treat "anti-communist mass killings" as a separate concept." I can provide more if necessary. Okip (formerly Ikip) 13:51, 11 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete as WP:SYNTH until and unless reliable sources can be found that discuss this specific concept, not just things that some editor thinks might be examples of it. *** Crotalus *** 21:09, 8 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- There are 52 references in this article! The article explains historical facts, what sections are WP:SYNTH? Broadly labeling 52 references synth is absurd. If there is synth in the article, it can be removed to the talk page. Okip (formerly Ikip) 13:35, 11 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep possibly rename. Needs work, for sure... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 01:28, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per Crotalus. Can anyone who thinks this should be kept please show how there are reliable sources on this concept? That's the criteria for keep/delete. Don't just say "keep" and not explain that point. The source doesn't have to say exactly "Anti-communist mass killings," but of course it needs to be about the concept. The first line of this article is currently unsourced. In truth, the article seems to have been made to prove a point. For better or worse, it doesn't seem to accord with wikipedia content policy and should be zapped for that reason.--Asdfg12345 08:07, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment If the problem is in the title, the page can easily be renamed. I haven't had time to study the article for original research, synthesis, etcetera, but I can already see that at least some of the mentioned events actually resulted in numerous murders of alleged communists or communist sympathizers. Google Books returns 48 results for "mass killings of communists"—clearly, the concept itself is fairly notable. — Rankiri (talk) 16:28, 10 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Many books call it that. The article seems to list actual cases, with references, and links to other articles. There seem to be people listed as being killed off that aren't communist. Was it primary communist that were killed off? Were all the leaders of trade unions and student groups killed, all communist, or did some support something else, or were just against a certain government official? I saw a documentary once on the rubber tree harvesters forming a union, not communist at all, and the government murdered, kidnapped, and tortured plenty of them. Can we perhaps list only those targeted specifically for being communist, separate from those targeted for just being against a government? Or change the name to Politically motivated mass murders, or mass murders against those against the government. Perhaps Government sanctioned mass murders for political or financial gain. Dream Focus 20:52, 10 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

*Delete - Synthesis, POV propaganda article, the purpose of which is soapboxing. Defender of torch (talk) 11:59, 11 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Strong keep well referenced article, usually when editors argue POV, they mean the article doesn't reflect their own POV. Several editors have been cleaning this up. I would support a vaguer name change. Using a blanket statment "synth" for an article with 52 references is absurd. Okip (formerly Ikip) 13:32, 11 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included on the , Caravan of Death and Operation Colombo page(s), which are related to this deletion discussion. User:Ikip
Strong Keep If mass killings under communist regimes is allowed so is this. Simonm223 (talk) 16:01, 11 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please see WP:POINT. --Defender of torch (talk) 16:23, 11 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I can see there is a clear systematic pro-communist bias in wikipedia from my experience in this site. This article has a ridiculous claim that Holocaust is a form of anti-communism. Playing the Nazi card is a classic Marxist strategy, AFAIK. This article is a hodge-podge of different isolated and separate incidents stitched together under the unsubstatiated title "anti-communist mass killing" to build a kind of propaganda piece. It reminds me of the propaganda poster Freedom, American style which uses some isolated and separate incidents gathered together for the purpose of propaganda. --Defender of torch (talk) 16:23, 11 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Systematic pro-communist bias"?? Ridiculous. This article is no more propagandistic than mass killings under communist regimes; in fact, it is less so, given that it is about a cohesive group of mass killings done for a similar reason (anticommunism), while the latter article is held together only by a superficial characteristic that different regimes have in common. csloat (talk) 16:26, 11 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

AFAIK = As Far As I Know. Defender of the torch, what facts are you disputing in the holocaust section? Nazi's were in fact extremely anti communist, and all of those facts listed here, did happen. Okip (formerly Ikip) 12:53, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per Simonm. If both these articles come up together I would consider a delete vote. I think there are SYN problems here but cherry picking one article and not the other for deletion appears as an attempt to use Wikipedia to soapbox. csloat (talk) 16:26, 11 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I am in full agreement with csloat. If the two articles were being brought up for AfD together I would be likely to support deletion but AfDing one and not the other is nothing more than soapboxing by the conservative fringe still fighting the cold war. Claims that Wikipedia has a pro-communist bias are so laughable that they don't warrant discussion. Simonm223 (talk) 13:03, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Keep - I think the case for this article is weaker than that for Mass killings under communist regimes; there's more concern over WP:SYN with this one. Nonetheless, this is indeed a list of mass killings partly or entirely targeted at communists and other left-wingers, so I can't really argue with the title; it would just be good to have some sources which address the subject in general rather than for the particular instances. Robofish (talk) 20:09, 11 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: Title "Massacres of Communists" seems more popular in Books google search than confusing "Anti-Communist Mass killings." And looks like a lead could be generated from one or more of those sources. Or maybe "Mass killings of Communists" to mirror Mass killings under Communist regimes. (Though didn't find that exact phrase in google.books.) Text and refs show such massacres has been a real phenomena and do deserve and article detailing them. CarolMooreDC (talk) 04:21, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

These are good suggestions for a name change. Okip (formerly Ikip) 12:55, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think this last suggestion seems reasonable. A reason for keeping the article should not be related to the fact that there's one about the killings communist regimes have done. But if there's a body of literature exploring how communists have been massacred, then obviously it stops being a synthesis. However, the examples I saw in google books there seemed to be cursory mentions in some journals. Can someone list a few books which deal with this concept specifically, or in detail? If it's really an independent field of study, there should be a clearly identifiable number of books or notable essays, journal articles, or at least book chapters on the topic. --Asdfg12345 17:22, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I also found more examples searching "killing of communists" and "anti-communist pogrom" - the latter especially related to Indonesia. "Massacre of Communists" also came up alot on scholar google. Haven't even tried News or Web. The fact that there is not a book or a "discipline" regarding this topic, does not mean it can't have a wikipedia article, given there are lots of WP:RS for most incident. We should be broadening types of massacres articles, if have WP:RS, not limiting them. CarolMooreDC (talk) 15:06, 13 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Right now, Anti-communist mass killings and Mass killings under communist regimes serve as Yin and yang articles. After going through both the articles, checking their edit history and talk pages, I came to the conclusion that this article was created as a counterbalance to the Mass killings under communist regimes article. The probelm with this article is that in some cases, it documents the killing of non-communists and anti-Marxist left (eg. left anarchists) under the banner "Anti-communist mass killings" (i.e. in the Nazi section). To reply to Okip, yes Nazis were anti-Marxist, but anti-communism was not the only characteristic of the Nazi regime. The Nazis killed anyone they viewed as their enemy, Marxists, left anarchists (Anarcho-capitalism was not developed at that time), classical liberals, Jews, homosexuals etc., they did not single out communists. Out of those, left anarchists and classical liberals were anticommunists. Thus labeling Holocaust as a form of anticommunism is misrepresentation of history. --Defender of torch (talk) 15:47, 13 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Week Keep I am changing my vote per the argument provided by Carolmooredc. It meets the notability threshold, but the article needs editing to fix certain POV issues. --Defender of torch (talk) 15:47, 13 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.