Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Amir Bramly

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus to delete at this time. Sourcing of the article appears to have been substantially improved; first participant's reversal from delete to keep carries substantial weight in this determination. bd2412 T 02:38, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Amir Bramly[edit]

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Fails WP:BIO and WP:GNG. Adam9007 (talk) 03:30, 24 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

He passed the Hebrew wikipedia (with no discussion on notability - just tone), and is amply sourced there. see - [1]. I will source all unsourced claims here. This is currently the largest Ponzi case ever in Israel - and is a significant amount also in dollar terms (more than 100 Million USD).Icewhiz (talk) 06:04, 24 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

~~Delete Neutral for now~~ Keep It looks like he is notable ~~but the article needs sourcing that addresses his pre-case notability and~~ his involvement in the alleged Ponzi scheme must be handled very carefully. ~~I will wait to see how the article evolves for a bit.~~ ~~This is currently a wholely negative BLP that is nearly unsourced and really should not be up. If it is improved I will change my !vote.~~ Also he has not been convicted so there is the matter of WP:BLPCRIME to consider. Jbh ^Talk 10:37, 24 February 2017 (UTC) Last edited: 14:55, 26 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Stubbed the article. Looking for some sources that are about him that can be used to source the article that do not focus on the unproven fraud charges. Jbh ^Talk 11:01, 24 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the charges - he himeself hasn't been convicted criminally - the case is ongoing. However, in civil court the companies were placed in final liquidation and -his own personal assets- are also under liquidation. In addition, a worker in his fund was recently convicted and sentenced in the criminal case as she placed a guilty plea-bargain plea ([2]). In this regard this case is much-much farther along than where Madoff was in January 2009 for instance - [3].

The fund / rubicon company / and Bramli himself - were all found in civil court to have their assets "tangled". Bramli was the public face of the companies. Icewhiz (talk) 11:30, 24 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

In terms of significance of the article - the main encyclopedic significance is the alleged Ponzi scheme. His activities as business man are marginal.Icewhiz (talk) 11:32, 24 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Icewhiz: Please read Wikipedia's policy on biographies of living persons. In particular please see BLPCRIME. We do not, in general, put indictments and accusations in biographies nor do we tie people indirectly to criminal activity unless they have been convicted. This goes double when it is the only material in a biography. It is possible you could find consensus for this material but I would suggest you bring it up at the BLP Noticeboard to get more input before adding such material. Jbh ^Talk 12:01, 24 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The BLPCRIME issue is complex given the concurrent civil (where there has been some judgements) and criminal proceedings here (where he hasn't been convicted as of yet, co-conspirator had been convicted (plea-bargain)). If the consensus here is that this can't be mentioned - I think I'll wait until there is a final verdict in an Israeli criminal court to write this up here more extensively (with other bio material as well). He is very high profile in Israeli media prior to the case - [4] 313 news items for 2009-2014 (pre-troubles). In short - I will bow to your better judgement. Icewhiz (talk) 13:24, 24 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If he has a lot of material pre-case then that can be used to balance out the article to avoid it being wholely negative and not WP:NPOV. Depending on how it is written, the civil case and, maybe, the investigation can be dealt with. BLPCRIME is not always an absolute bar but it requires a strong consensus and delicate/conservative handeling of the issues which is why I suggested discussing it at WP:BLPN. It might also be worthwhile to write separate articles about the case/investigation and funds (assuming they are notable per WP:ILLCON.)Jbh ^Talk 13:51, 24 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Delete one sources is never enough to pass GNG.John Pack Lambert (talk) 16:50, 25 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

talk, ^Talk, talk Please take another look - I redid this more extensively - with plenty of sources, strictly NPOV, and leaving out BLPCRIME (which I did add as a one-liner - unresolved - in a separate edit). I think he should pass GNG - He has 1,100 news items in Israeli media - [5], including hundreds before 2014 (when his liqudity / investigation / etc started becoming an issue) - [6]. Originally my intention was to place a short summary stub in the English wikipedia - but this obviously didn't meet community guidelines on BLP (as this obviously focused on the most interesting bit) - this new more extensive re-edit should. Thank you.Icewhiz (talk) 21:45, 25 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding WP:GNG - now have 45 references spanning 2012-2016, covering several different topics (from in-depth inteviews with Bramly, to specific issues he was involved with), from a number of sources: Calcalist, Globes (incl. Globes English when available (spotty)), TheMarker - these 3 are the leading Israeli economic papaers. Forbes Israel - probably ranks beneath these three for local finance. Yedioth Ahronoth - One of Israel's leading newspapers. The Times of Israel - English coverage of Israel. Haaretz English (TheMarker is affiliated with Haaretz - is an insert, so most finance stuff is there) - Israel's premier newspaper (roughly locally equivalent to NYT/WP). Israel Securities Authority - public warning against Amir Bramly (mentioned in text several times) and Kela. Israeli News Company - leading TV news in Israel. Bloomberg - mainly for company/executing info. ICE - a media site that covers media affairs in Israel Walla! - one of the leading Israeli news portals. Bizportal - Financial portal. Roughly locally equivalent to MarketWatch in local significance. Net Acre - local Acre newspaper, insignificant - there for color on hometown. Icewhiz (talk) 14:17, 26 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Israel-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 09:40, 28 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 09:40, 28 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Natg 19 (talk) 01:35, 4 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - I admit the original had issues regarding tone and BLP policy. As it now stands (I even linked a Wikipedia:Orphan: Ezbob) - it is neutral tone-wise (if at all - too "pro Bramly"), and is amply-sourced, from all or almost all (and if I left anyone out - omission of mine, they have coverage) major Israeli publications, spanning ~~5+ years from 2012~~10+ years from 2006 (OK - I just added one from 2006, but from Haaretz on a business of his (with a quote from him) moving during to Tel-Aviv during the war). It is possible to source more, if needed, seeing he has over 1000 news items on google-news - [7]. Due to his very high profile(pre-troubles), he is notable beyond his business troubles/ponzi. Icewhiz (talk) 09:14, 4 March 2017 (UTC) Updated: Icewhiz (talk) 08:15, 5 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, J 947 01:36, 11 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Please take another look, as the issues causing nomination (tone + BLP policy + sources) were rectified post listing with a major-major rewrite (Jbh- who made the initial PROD (on A7)- changed his vote to keep. Adam9007 changed the initial PROD to AFD, but hasn't looked since. John Pack Lambert - voted on the pre-rewrite stubbified version (and on that version his vote was correct - as it was missing sources that were mostly edited out)). This is a very high-profile individual in the Israeli business scene from before his troubles - and the alleged ponzi scheme and issue surrounding it (raising funds without a prospectus) have causes major ramifications with the local regulation/legislation regarding fund raising from the public. The current article (as opposed to the original) is very well sourced - over 60 sources from all major Israeli news outlets, covering a 10 year span. Some of these sources are in English (where possible - some of the local financial stuff is translated), the rest is in Hebrew.Icewhiz (talk) 11:21, 19 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.