Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alternative versions of Joker

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge‎ to Joker (character)#Alternative versions. I'm closing as Merge rather than a simple Redirect because currently there is really very little content in the paragraph readers are being directed to in the target article. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 19:22, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Alternative versions of Joker[edit]

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Another unnecessary split from Joker (comics), that is 99% plot summary referenced to comic books. The topic seems to have no stand-alone WP:GNG. Arguably there is also OR issue here - who decides which versions of Joker are "alternative" or "redefined" ("the Joker has been represented in a variety of different stories that redefine elements of the character's appearance and personality")? I am not sure if there is anything that warrants merging or redirecting, but redirects are cheap. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:53, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Fictional elements, Science fiction and fantasy, and Comics and animation. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:53, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, it needs improving, not deleting, and that shouldn't be the default state and it's ridiculous to think it's an "unnecessary split" as if you could cram all those versions into the existing Joker article. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 13:52, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- If you cannot cram, well, then the relevant policy is WP:CONTENTSPLIT: consideration must be given both to notability of the offshoot topic... If one or more of the topics is not notable on its own, it may be more appropriate to simply remove the material from Wikipedia than to create a new article. And what we have here is a notability-failing plot summary: see WP:NOTPLOT. What reliable, independent sources discuss the topic here ("Alternative versions of Joker")? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:23, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  - It would be easy for someone to find sources for most of the entries here but to be clear they are sourced, you just don't like that they're sourced to comics. Plenty of websites cover comic books, particularly The Batman Who Laughs, Flashpoint, Injustice, White Knight, and Dark Knight versions (though to be clear I do enough on Wikipedia, I'm not going to go find those sources), but it's not worthy of deletion because of that, and frankly the time you've spent both creating this, replying to me, and posting on my talk page, could have covered that task. Be useful instead of just wasting time on saying that alternate versions of one of the most recognizable villains in popular culture can't be sourced and ignoring that people will, justifably, try to add all of these versions to the main article, where they cannot fit and editors will have little justification to remove them if sourced. Seriously, I spent my time making featured articles, you're running around nominating articles like Remi, Nobody's Girl (a 26 episode anime so hardly unnotable) for deletion instead of just improving them. You're not only wasting your time, you're wasting the time of all the editors you drag into this. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 09:50, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Please mind WP:AGF and WP:NPA. And you seem to confuse me with User:Timtrent, the nom for Remi. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:22, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Joker (character), per WP:AVOIDSPLIT. Besides violating WP:SIGCOV, a lot of this is WP:OR without a reliable definition of "alternate". The major appearances are already covered at the main article, and the minor appearances are largely unsourced, with nothing to WP:PRESERVE. Shooterwalker (talk) 02:14, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Piotrus' citation of CONTENTSPLIT is plainly misleading. That policy deals with "two or more distinct topics [!sharing] the samebase title, not spinoffs from a very long article on a notable topic. There is much critical commentary. 104.226.30.18 (talk) 16:42, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep or merge with Joker (character)#Alternative versions in the spirit of WP:PRESERVE....especially as we need to put the history of Earth-Two's Joker somewhere on this website. --Rtkat3 (talk) 19:59, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I would very much like someone to tell me why this is not WP:OR, after which I will consider forming an opinion 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 07:07, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: there's some coverage of the character and his various incarnations in Amazing Heroes, particularly around the publication of Crisis and its' aftermath, though there was stuff on the character throughout (there's a big spike in Batman & Joker articles in '89 around the Tim Burton film). There are a fair few issues on Internet Archive even though there probably shouldn't be. The latter is also true of Wizard, though they were very much more into Marvel and Image, but might be worth a look at for any shiny new 1990s versions. BoomboxTestarossa (talk) 08:42, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@BoomboxTestarossa It depends whether the coverage is "within universe" in a comic (etc) issue, or whether the coverage is an external and substantial commentary in multiple reliable secondary sources. The former produces either WP:OR o0r WP:SYNTH or both. The latter potentially verifies notability, not of the Joker per se, but of the topic of this article, the alternative versions. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 09:43, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The coverage isn't in-universe, they would be reliable secondary sources. That said I'm not schlepping through back issues (though Back Issue! would be another place to look) for a Big Two article or for an AfD. It's just an illustration that in many areas smashing stuff into Google doesn't really touch upon it. BoomboxTestarossa (talk) 01:19, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: After analysing the content and the alleged references, I see WP:OR and WP:SYNTH as making up in excess of 90% of this article. It's a great magazine article, because magazines require no verifiability. There is no WP:V here, and that is one of the major tenets of Wikiipedia. Instead there are pseudo-references to issues of Batman comics. These are not independent of the topic. Remember,the article is not about the character The Joker. It is about the variations, the alternative versions.
To remind us what is required: We require references from significant coverage about the topic of the article, and independent of it, in multiple secondary sources which are WP:RS please. See WP:42. Please also see WP:PRIMARY which details the limited permitted usage of primary sources and WP:SELFPUB which has clear limitations on self published sources. Providing sufficient references, ideally one per fact referred to, that meet these tough criteria is likely to allow this article to remain. Lack of them or an inability to find them is likely to mean that the topic is not suitable for inclusion, certainly today.
I do not see references that meet these tough criteria. I only see OR and SYNTH. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 09:57, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Joker (character)#Alternative versions - There doesn't appear to be any significant coverage in reliable sources of the overall concept of alternate versions of the Joker that shows that the topic is notable enough on its own, and the vast majority of the versions listed here are extremely minor, one-shot characters, if even that. Any versions that actually have reliable sources that would indicate any kind of notability should be covered on main article. Since there are currently no non-primary sources in this article, a simple Redirect is sufficient. Rorshacma (talk) 06:42, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 16:34, 14 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to Joker (character)#Alternative versions. With the Joker being a popular fictional character that gets reinvented and reimagined with every generation, there is basically an infinite amount of alternative versions of him -- to many to mention all. Joker (disambiguation) links to the notable ones with articles; the others can be covered briefly in (or omitted from) the character's main article. – sgeureka ^t•c 12:07, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.