Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Allen (Cambridge University cricketer)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to List of English cricketers (1787–1825) per WP:PRESERVE. Consensus against the continued existence of the article as it stands is clear. BD2412 T 23:12, 29 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Allen (Cambridge University cricketer)[edit]

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first name and dates unknown, fails WP:GNG. Störm (talk) 06:09, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The article talk page narrows it down to two chaps. It needs a more detailed Cambridge (probably Pembroke) source to be certain though. At worst this can be redirected to the list of cricketers from that date range - it might have been better dealt with on the article talk page given that there's already some discussion there. An IP added the college information in 2017 and I suspect there is more out there if anyone had access to the appropriate sources. Blue Square Thing (talk) 07:23, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 08:40, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Cricket-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 08:40, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 08:40, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Weak redirect to List of English cricketers (1787–1825) Has only played 2 FC matches, and an internet search was almost impossible with the details we know. Sources though may well exist offline, especially in the Cambridge area. Using a similar precedent to that used by WP:FOOTY where a player with one or a few matches, but no coverage, is redirected/deleted, and there's a suitable WP:ATD here. No qualms if this page is kept though as there's a good chance there's offline coverage

List of English cricketers (1787–1825) may be a better redirect target - there's a very short biography of him there as opposed to a simple list. Blue Square Thing (talk) 18:39, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Blue Square Thing, does look a better redirect target. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 20:11, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Since this is a case from the 19th-century in England the fact that we lack anything other than a last name shows virtually nothing is known of this person and having an article on them is just not justified at all.John Pack Lambert (talk) 13:47, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete No significant coverage so fails WP:GNG. Entirely insufficient information available from databases to justify crafting such an article. The first-class status of the matches is highly debatable, with no such official or universally agreed designation in 1820. There is also no source to attest of the standard. Interestingly, in the second match it seems several of the CU team didn't even turn up on the second day [1]. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 14:38, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. If the ACS (who run CricketArchive) say it's first-class, then it's first-class. We're not here to question the status of matches. Alumni Cantabrigineses has a couple of possibilities for his identity, though no proof of course, just dates matching:

"ALLEN, JOHN ROY. .Adm. pens, (age 17) at Pembroke, Apr. 17, 1817. [3rd] s. of Jefferys (1778), of Bridgwater, Somerset. B. there. Matric. Michs. 1817; Scholar; B.A. 1821; M.A. 1825. Adm. at the Inner Temple, Jan. 27, 1821. Called to the Bar, 1826; disbarred by request, 1835. Recorder of Taunton, Andover and Bridgwater, 1841-61. Of Lyng- ford Taunton. J. P. Married Lydia Augusta, dau. of James Watson, of Bath, 1831. Died Mar. 10, 1875, aged 76, at Weston-super-Mare. Brotherof Charles J. (1S19)."

"ALLEN, SAMUEL JAMES. Adm. pens, (age 17) at Pembroke, Feb. 17, 1816. S. and h. of Samuel, sail-maker, of London. B. there June 16, 1798. School, Merchant Taylors'. Matric. Michs. 1816; Exhibitioner; Scholar; B..\. 1820; M.A. 1824. University Preacher, 1833. C. of Langho, Lanes. P.C. of Salesbury, 1822. Chaplain to Lord de Tabley. Sometime Head Master of the Free Grammar School, Burnley, Lanes. V. of Easingwold, Yorks., 1839-56. Assisted Thomas Dunham Whitaker, the historian of Whalley, Craven and Richmondshire, in his Uterary work ; on the death of Whitaker was engaged by the publishers of The History of Richmond- shire to complete the work. A learned antiquary and a clever draftsman; left a large collection of MSS. relating to the antiquities of Yorks. and Lanes. Author, Lectures in Defence of the Church of England; Sermons. Died Apr. 29, 1856, aged 58. Brother of Isaac N. (1831)"

If the latter person, he could well be notable. StickyWicket (talk) 20:40, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect as per User:Blue Square Thing to List of English cricketers (1787–1825). Per User:Wjemather's comments on other AfDs, University matches were more significant in earlier years than they are today, and there were very few first class matches as early as 1820. The ACS definition is, of course, the correct one as they control the classification of matches. Finding sources so early, however, would be nightmarish. DevaCat1 (talk) 21:16, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete the article clearly fails WP:GNG, no SNG pass will help it here. I also don't think this is a plausible redirect. SportingFlyer T·C 23:24, 25 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Fails WP:GNG. Those conducting original research to supposedly narrow it down to two people have failed to account for the fact there is no confirmation this player was an undergraduate in 1820.----Pontificalibus 12:22, 29 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Strong delete Even if the match is first-class; the only thing NCRIC (being a subject notability guideline) creates is a rebuttable presumption of meeting the general notability guideline (and therefore the expectation that we will have enough material to write a proper article). Given how far back in time this chap supposedly played cricket (which was then an entirely amateur sport), and given how unlikely we are to find coverage equivalent to the kind of stuff we get for modern players that far back; given finally that there have been no other sources (beyond alumni records to prove WP:ITEXISTS, which isn't sufficient) to demonstrate this supposed notability; the presumption finds itself strongly rebutted. If the only thing we can provide is a generic database like routine statement "X played cricket ...", this is not encyclopedia worthy material, and it fails both WP:NOT (not a database) and WP:GNG. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 21:25, 29 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.