Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alexandros Grigoropoulos

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to 2008 Greek riots. The people advocating for "keep" note that his death triggered important events. That is so, but viewed through the lens of established Wikipedia policies and guidelines, such as WP:NOTMEMORIAL and WP:NOT#NEWS, among others cited below, this is a weak argument, especially given that there seems to be little to report about this man except the circumstances of his death and the reactions to it, all of which are best covered at the target article. This does not preclude a later spinoff per WP:SS if the development of the target article requires it.  Sandstein  16:52, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Alexandros Grigoropoulos[edit]

Alexandros Grigoropoulos (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)
  • Keep:Notable, doubtlessly going to expand as the situation progresses and more information becomes available.
  • Keep and improve. Notable for events after his death that were triggered supposedly by his death.Edmund Patrick – confer 19:02, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep notable enough. Improve --TheFEARgod (Ч) 19:12, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Merge with Greek riots. Notable only because of one event. I doubt the article will grow --TheFEARgod (Ч) 20:48, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: Notable enough per Edmund Patrick and TheFEARgod, a person who's death triggered such an important event. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 19:14, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Person is not notable outside of the 2008 Greek riots, and that article contains the same information in the first paragraph. --Fastsince85 (talk) 19:25, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Person not notable outside of this article. America69 (talk) 19:36, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Mohammed Atta is a person not notable outside of 9/11 attacks' article. (This is not meant to compare their acts of course - see my detailed reasoning below). -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 11:20, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • good point about Mohammed Atta, although i still disagree. if you delete the atta article the 9/11 article will expand its coverage on him until you need to split him out into his own article. the Alexandros Grigoropoulos article is not yet so indepth with relevant material that deleting it would result in the 2008 greek riots article being expanded. maybe later, as events unfold and if Alexandros Grigoropoulos still plays a large part in them, his article can be branched out, but for now, it is premature, at best. Misterdiscreet (talk) 20:30, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • Note: I don't remember reading a Wikipedia policy which defines a criterion of notability as "topics expanded enough in their articles to become autonomous articles themselves". It is not a proper criterion since if we merge the article, we will prohibit its natural growth. pictureuploader (talk) 08:13, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Notable, doubtlessly going to expand as the situation progresses and more information becomes available. Nigholith (talk) 20:17, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge to 2008 Greek riots. Not notable outside the incident. JIP | Talk 20:38, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Compare with Benno Ohnesorg and Death of Carlo Giuliani.Damac (talk) 22:04, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep or merge and redirect. Whatever ones inclusion criteria are, I doubt anyone would argue that the riots his death caused aren't notable. The question really is: do we write a separate articel or not. If we don't, we merge and redirect to put him in perspective. I see no valid reasons for deletion. - Mgm|(talk) 23:20, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Notable, considering the events his death triggered. Odikuas (talk) 02:04, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom and Fastsince85. also, WP:NOTMEMORIAL, WP:RECENTISM, WP:NOT#NEWS, and WP:INHERITED. and as for Benno Ohnesorg and Death of Carlo Giuliani... see WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS. if this article cannot survive on its own weight and on its own merits - if the justification for its existence requires two other articles exist - it has no business being on wikipedia. and as for the "notable enough" arguments... see WP:ITSNOTABLE. Misterdiscreet (talk) 01:10, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom. I feel sorry for the kid, but he is not notable and does not need to be memorialized here. Sufficient detail already exists at 2008 Greek riots. Aramgar (talk) 01:19, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I understand concerns about notability but I think time is going to see this develop. You can compare this article to the development of the Carlo Giuliani article about the young man who was shot dead by police at 2001 G8 demonstration in Genoa. His notability is limited to the incident, yes, but that article eventually developed with details about the actual shooting death of the teen which people added on as the information came to light. For example, this entry will likely serve as an encyclopedia for information on the trial of the two police officers involved in his death, which is historically notable information, given the riots that broke out. Normally, I'd be against a one-incident notability, but this will likely have lots of important information down the line. SamuraiDiscoCat (talk) 01:59, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep His death was clearly notable. I'm sure many are curious about his life. Why not keep for now an reconsider the fate of the article in a year or so once it has had a chance. Why kill it now? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.71.11.40 (talk) 02:44, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
by that same token why not delete it now and recreate it in a year if there's still interest? Misterdiscreet (talk) 04:20, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment:By that logic, we should merge and redirect everything to Big Bang - causality isn't the issue here. The 2008 Greek riots were in response to the Death of Alexandros Grigoropoulos, but they deal with two distinct sets of events. One is about a police bullet entering a teenager's body, and what actually happened is incredibly contested. As his death is investigated, a lot of claims are emerging regarding the the specific event - who was at the scene, who at the scene did what before, during, and after he was shot, who was specifically responsible, if it was an act of murder or self-defense, and so on. In this article, we say that it sparked the riots, but we don't go too much in depth about the riots.
The other event is a group of people getting angry and doing a lot of different things in a lot of different cities. What actually happened (or is happening) in that event is not that contested, although there are a lot of facts to sort out. As these riots progress, a lot of claims are emerging regarding the specific event - what got damaged, domestic and international responses, total cost, political fallout, and so on. In this article, we say that the riots were sparked by his death, but we don't go in depth about the events of that night, the investigation, trial, etc. Stu (aeiou) 17:30, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Notability limited to WP:ONEEVENT. WWGB (talk) 12:18, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Cover the event per WP:BIO1E. Merge and redirect to 2008 Greek riots. No notability independent of the event shown. • Gene93k (talk) 12:53, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: Sadly the person is not notable outside of the riots. No matter how much the article is improved the vast majority of the contents will be about the riots and what happened afterward, (court cases, responses, other injuries, and so forth), it might turn into an article biased toward the rioters in general. FFMG (talk) 14:38, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Person is not notable outside of the 2008 Greek riots, ' —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pkonandreas (talk • contribs) 15:50, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep:I think that a person murdered by a police special guard is quite notable, for human rights violations which caused his death. What follows his death includes Greek riots, but also a controversial court procedure, where the murderer didn't apologize etc.--Lady 6thofAu (talk) 16:15, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Whatever social changes are made, as a result of his death, make him notable. NorthernThunder (talk) 17:15, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Subject is sufficiently covered in the 2008 Greece Riots article. --Tocino 17:20, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: Article will expand and will be a notable topic distinct from the riots. I would also support a move to Death of Alexandros Grigoropoulos, but we should begin treating the person/triggering incident and the riots as related matters. The riot article does not need to detail what will certainly be a long legal proceeding or detail facts about the young person who died. Jokestress (talk) 18:29, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, absolutely. This person, as part of street culture phenomenon, was notable enough for another person to shoot, and to shoot not in the air. You can not get ricochet from the air. Grigoropoulos represented certain social group. Thus context (background of the killing), which is directly related to matter who the killed one was as person, is complicated in itself and has standalone essence beyond riots. DenisRS (talk) 21:13, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: "two warning shots in the air and a third aimed on the ground", says the article about riots. Seriously, "warning shots" are not done by aiming on the ground; there was reason for that. DenisRS (talk) 18:01, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Notable. ScarianCall me Pat! 22:08, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - For now. Until the full extent of the situation can be determined. --➨Candlewicke  :) Sign/Talk 22:14, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: In relation to and as a possible reason for my above statement the talk page does mention Jean Charles de Menezes. Perhaps in time this has the potential to be like that case. --➨Candlewicke  :) Sign/Talk 22:18, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Historically significant for Greece.MiltonP Ottawa (talk) 02:34, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. He is already notable and will remain so. The article will propably grow by time in the aftermath. hydrox (talk) 07:22, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hesitant Keep as it stands now* The story has huge notability, the state of unrest in Greece as a result of his shooting is making huge international headlines. One of the top stories in Seattle, Washington tonight on the news. I am just wondering if this young man himself, who was actually the catalyst to newsworthy event should be focus of article or perhaps on on the fallout instead.OneHappyHusky (talk) 08:48, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Readers have the right to know who was the person whose death prompted nationwide riots covered in the media worldwide. The Greek modern historians will at least refer to him as others still refer to Gavrilo Princip (this is of course not meant to compare the two persons but to show what prompting a large-scale event means). -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 11:16, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per FayssalF. --KaragouniS :  Chat  13:15, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep At least on par with Jean Charles de Menezes, Crispus Attucks, John Tunstall, and any other number of articles whose sole notability is based on the circumstances of the person's death and its political / historical consequences. 168.39.166.127 (talk) 15:42, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: Unlike Jean Charles de Menezes, Grigoropoulos is not the event itself -- the 2008 Greek riots are -- and there is little more that can be written about Grigoropoulos that would not also appear in the article on the riots. ⇒Bayerischermann - 18:20, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Delete per WP:BLP1E Terrakyte (talk) 20:01, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Notable enough per Edmund Patrick and TheFEARgod, a person who's death triggered such an important event. Lenerd (talk) 21:44, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Should we reduce Crispus Attucks, Rodney King and others who died under similar circumstances to less than a footnote in history, just because they weren't 'significant' enough? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.103.114.107 (talk) 22:15, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: please do not disrupt the comment flow when casting your vote [3]. Misterdiscreet (talk) 15:32, 12 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong delete This happens every time there is a major news story and is exactly the reason WP:BLP1E exists: "The bare fact that someone has been in the news does not in itself imply that they should be the subject of an encyclopedia entry. Cover the event, not the person." The kid is not notable for anything except being shot by Greek police. Because Wikipedia is not a memorial whatever biographical details that come to light aren't going to change the fact that this kid still isn't notable and still doesn't deserve an encyclopedia article about him beyond mention in the article about the riots themselves. There's nothing to add and nothing to expand. Everyone move along now and get back to working on 2008 Greek riots. Madcoverboy (talk) 05:25, 12 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree- Delete As I stated above I felt the resulting situation was the noteworthy part and this young man's tragic death a big part but not worthy of entry. I totally agree with Madcoverboy on this. As to Lenerd, crass attacks are the excuse for have no argument of merit.OneHappyHusky (talk) 07:36, 12 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep keepppppppppppppp cops are killing all the time in Greece this WILL not pass like this! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.71.131.50 (talk) 11:10, 12 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

— 94.71.131.50 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. WWGB (talk) 12:33, 12 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • ADMIN COMMENT I have protected the page for 3 days due to an edit war. I feel bad that an article up for deletion had to be protected. So if there are real efforts that need to be made in order to improve this article for the purpose of trying to avoid deletion that come in conflict with the block, feel free to use edit-protect, request unprotection at WP:RPP, or even contact me personally. I apologize for an inconvinence this protection has caused, but hopefully it will allow the users engaged in the edit war to work out their differences.-Andrew c [talk] 14:42, 12 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong redirect There is nothing in the article that does not belong in 2008 Greek riots. Per BLP1E the notability derives from the shooting, not the person, and we already have an article for the shooting. It is not big enough to warrant splitting yet, and it only duplicates the work needed to uphold BLP/NPOV/3RR over the issue. At best it is redundant and already duplicates content not directly related to his life (which is the purpose of a biography), at worst, it is a memorial BLP. MickMacNee (talk) 17:45, 12 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect eventually. As said many times above, he is notable for only one event. The article covers his death, its consequences and his funeral. There is no reason, why all of them should not just be in the 2008 Greek riots article. I don't really know if the second paragraph, which gives an overview of his personal life is important, but if it is, it could also be covered in the article about the riots. However, I think that this article should be kept for awhile, just to see if some new information comes up about him. Who knows, maybe there really was a specific reason why he was shot. I think it is possible that at least some conspiracy theories will be created.--U.U. (talk) 20:28, 12 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge into 2008 Greek riots: the article we have on him is really just part of that bigger story. Biographical articles should be reserved for individuals who are notable in their own right; in this case, it's the event that's notable, not the person, and the two should be merged into one article. A reasonable parallel here is with the article 2005 civil unrest in France, which doesn't have separate articles for the two teenagers, Zyed Benna and Bouna Traoré, whose deaths provoked the riots - they're covered in the main article instead. Terraxos (talk) 02:47, 13 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep as Grigoropoulos is a noticably important person. The papers all around the world are flooded with his story. I have also noted that some little known Filipino singers and Australian poets have had articles written about them. They are not as notable as this person are they? User:Koshoes —Preceding undated comment was added at 09:27, 13 December 2008 (UTC).[reply]
    • it's hard to comment without seeing the articles you're talking about, but even if you did link to them, i don't think it'd make a difference. i mean, seriously, what do you propose? that every other non-notable be deleted before this one? if that's the bar for getting articles deleted then nothing is ever going to get deleted. you'd have to simultaneously nominate every single non-notable article on wikipedia for deletion at the same time and do you have any clue how long that'd take? there are probably tens of thousands of non-notable wikipedia articles and even that might be a conservative estimate. so, in short, WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS. Misterdiscreet (talk) 18:42, 13 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Read this story till the part where this boy is killed. We would have a wikipedia article with him even if there were no riots. I believe that eventually some of the information about the shooting and the investigation should be placed here. The riot's article should concern mostly with the riots, the consequences and reactions, and a simple mention of what happened, just to put things into context and the reader can understand the historical background for why it happpened. Maziotis (talk) 11:47, 13 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge into 2008 Greek riots this person who helped start the riot should be included in to the riots, his main famosity is to do with the riots, he is only notable because of them. --Zaharous (talk) 19:37, 13 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep -- the references provided in Alexandros_Grigoropoulos#References indicate sufficient coverage of this person in third-party reliable sources to establish a presumption of his notability per the general notability guideline. Though WP:BLP1E -- a redirect to Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons#Articles about people notable only for one event -- has been advanced as grounds for deletion, it is inapplicable, as the subject of this article is deceased. John254 22:56, 13 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect to 2008 Greek riots. Wikipedia is not the news nor a memorial (check WP:NOTMEMORIAL, WP:RECENTISM, WP:NOT#NEWS). The person certainly fails under WP:BLP1E. His deaths is certainly the spark that started the riots in Greece (but of course is not the only reason). Because of the events, this name remains a valuable searchable item. -- Magioladitis (talk) 02:10, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note This article would be more valuable in the Greek Wikipedia but in there is a redirect as well since December 9 and there was no disagreements in that. -- Magioladitis (talk) 02:13, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge with 2008 Greek riots. Non notable outside this one event. Bsimmons666 (talk) Friend? 04:23, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep - Many events and protests were made in his memory and name, even outside Greece. pictureuploader (talk) 08:13, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Edit: By events I mean both violent and non-violent[4]. His death was not responsible only for the riots, but for human rights considerations. That's why IMHO merging this article with the riots would downgrade the event. pictureuploader (talk) 08:47, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete or merge no notability outside the context of the riots. By now, many other youngsters have probably gained more notability for their part in the continuing riots. --Pan Miacek (t) 12:58, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. There is nothing encyclopedic to be said about this boy, as a person, and about his life. What there is to say is about his death, and that's all part of 2008 Greek riots, of which this is basically nothing but a poorly written fork. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:20, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Procedural note: there was a cut-and-paste move shortly after creation of the article, from Aleksandros Grigoropoulos to Alexandros Grigoropoulos. I'll fix that now, independently of the AfD. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:25, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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