Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alberto Celli

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Tim Song (talk) 04:32, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Alberto Celli[edit]

Alberto Celli (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)
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Notability not established. BigGayAllison talk   07:18, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Similarly, the claim that the player has turned out for the San Marino national side would have been enough too to establish notability, but I can find no reliable sources to verify that he actually played for the full national team. He is described as a team member on this website, but I can find no indication of the site's provenance or the reliability of its information. He is not listed on the page of the San Marino team official website. He seems probably to have played for the junior national sides, but WP:NSPORTS says notability derives from having played in an "officially sanctioned senior international competition" (my italics). So I'm going with delete unless someone can prove that the Campionato Sammarinese is fully pro.
I should probably note that my inclination toward delete is shored up by the general lack of news coverage of this person - all the Google News Archive hits for his name refer to someone else. So there's no indication, as far as I can see, of the subject meeting the general notability guideline. Since it's a biography of a living person, I'm all the more keen that claims be verified if the article is kept. Gonzonoir (talk) 09:00, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - There is a full article on the Italian wiki Alberto Celli it.wikipedia.org with references. I will see about translating the refs. ----moreno oso (talk) 12:01, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If my Italian's up to it, it seems to be saying that he got a callup to the full national side for a game against Germany, but never came off the bench - does that cut the mustard for a full international career? Gonzonoir (talk) 12:32, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment the San Marino league is not a fully professional league, but an amateur league. The article was only changed to "professional" in the last few days, and I have undone this change (and blocked the culprit as a block-evading sock at the same time). So any notability for this player will not come from playing in a professional league, as that is incorrect. Fram (talk) 12:13, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 14:47, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Athletes-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 14:47, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. GiantSnowman 00:22, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - international appearance in 2006 confirmed by this site. Meets WP:ATHLETE. GiantSnowman 00:25, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - even if he actually played that game (btw, are we sure that national-football-teams.com is a reliable source?), he would definitely fail WP:GNG and WP:BIO due to lack of reliable sources, which is way more important than a handful minutes in a lone game for San Marino's national team. --Angelo (talk) 00:29, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Week keep - in my experience national-football-teams.com has always been acurate, which would verify the national team appearance, and thus make him pass WP:ATHLETE. Sir Sputnik (talk) 01:35, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - as per NSPORTS Futbol, this individual has represented his "country in any officially sanctioned senior international competition". ----moreno oso (talk) 01:52, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
For what it's worth, WP:NSPORTS qualifies that statement: "Players, managers and referees who have represented their country in any officially sanctioned senior international competition... The notability of these is accepted as they would have received significant coverage as outlined above in the general notability criteria." (my emphasis.) I'm not seeing the significant coverage that the condition assumes, so I am still leaving my !vote as delete (setting aside the question of the reliability of that source). Gonzonoir (talk) 07:38, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You basically made the case with your bolding of "as they would have received significant coverage as outlined above in the general notability criteria". A new or young player is not likely to receive substantial coverage. In essence, the criteria you bolded suggests that by playing in a notable event, the player or coach would have received significant coverage had they been a star player or done something noteworthy in the game. ----moreno oso (talk) 14:34, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or not, heh. Are you saying that the lack of coverage of this (new, young) player is to be expected and therefore shouldn't be taken as a reason for deletion (because the player is systematically disadvantaged in receiving coverage), or that it is to be expected and therefore should be taken as a reason for deletion? As you can probably tell, I subscribe to the latter interpretation (no coverage, no notability). Gonzonoir (talk) 15:21, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In essence, by all my edits I disagree to the deletion by the NSPORTS criteria for soccer players. That criteria suggests as per your bolding IMO that the player would have received "significant coverage" which is its threshold for notability. Unfortunately, this AfD has become very convoluted and with jumping around (no reflection on any editor to include me too), the debate items may be hard to discern. I basically re-affirm my Keep based upon Wikipedia:NSPORTS#Football_.28soccer.29, Football (Soccer) - please note, I do not include "Football (Soccer) inside the brackets ala Football (Soccer) which I know how to do. ----moreno oso (talk) 15:47, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: as far as I can tell, he only played half a match in a friendly against Albania, which is not a "senior international competition" (a qualifier for the EC or the WC could be interpreted as such, but not a friendly). (One of the reasons that friendlies don't count, apart from the lesser importance, is that instead of three, an unlimited (?) number of replacements may be used. In the case of the San Marino-Albania game, apparently 6 substitutions were used by San Marino[1]). For the San Marino vs. Germany 0-13 game, Celli was a bench-sitter, but he didn't play in that game[2]. Looking at the other matches, Celli seems to never have been on the team.[3] So it looks to me as if he played half a game in one friendly, and that's it. Fram (talk) 08:12, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • The San Marino-Albania match is reported as an "A" international by FIFA (you can search for it here: http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/results/index.html). I'm not sure why an "A" international suddenly wouldn't count towards WP:NSPORTS/footy. Jogurney (talk) 14:31, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • I must be missing something. I don't see any indication of "A" international, "B" international, or any other category. The only thing I can find is that the match is labeled a "friendly". Footy requires a "competition", so that this match doesn't count for automatic notability is not "sudden" but standard procedure. We are already very lax for people from such minor football countries as San Marino or the Faeroer, in that one minute in an official qualifier is sufficient. Going even further would be unwise, particularly since e.g. this AfD is a prime example of someone playing in a fairly recent friendly and lacking all significant coverage anyway. Fram (talk) 14:43, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • FIFA doesn't list "B" internationals there. They only list "A" internationals. While I agree that this particular footballer seems to be non-notable, I'm worried that we are changing policy (in the past, play in any FIFA-recognized "A" international match was considered sufficient to pass WP:ATHLETE). Jogurney (talk) 15:07, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - in past AfDs, one minute of play in a fully pro-league was viewed as sufficient to establish notability. Why is this case different? Jogurney (talk) 14:27, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Probably because he hasn't played a single minute in a fully pro league, but only in the fully amateur (not even semi-pro) San Marino premier league? San Marino has a population of 30,000, which is obviously insufficient to maintain a full professional football league. His club Domagnano has a 500 person capacity only. The only professional team in San Marino is San Marino Calcio. Fram (talk) 14:38, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Refering to the population and the status of its league begins the WP:SYNTH theory. But, let's accept that theory that San Marino does not have a fully professional league. In essence, their "highest amateur league" is then the highest amateur level of soccer by that theory. Ergo, to further the syth theory, the individual has played at the highest amateur level available to him in his country. ----moreno oso (talk) 14:46, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Which is not an accepted rule to include someone. Highest level of a sport internationally, not nationally. As for SYNTH, I just provided logical arguments in a discussion, not content to an article. But if you can provide evidence that the San Marino League is fully professional after all, be my guest. I won't hold my breath. Fram (talk) 14:50, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Do you suggest that we change WP:ATHLETE from "People who have competed at the highest amateur level of a sport, usually considered to mean the Olympic Games or World Championships." to "People who have competed at the highest amateur level of a sport, usually considered to mean the Olympic Games or World Championships or San Marino Football League"? Please don't make thgis debate completely ridiculous... Fram (talk) 14:52, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
On a rewrite, I would agree. NSPORTS cheapens IMHO the notability of all sports because then the argument of WP:OTHERSTUFF applies. If an athlete is deemed WP:N for one minute of play by that criteria, then actors should be noteworthy for one minute of onscreen airtime. ----moreno oso (talk) 15:00, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
BTW, when I quoted NPSPORTS in my Keep argument, I directly quoted its criteria, which I will do again: "Players, managers and referees who have represented their country in any officially sanctioned senior international competition". I accept your debate items without a questioning attitude. I have stayed on-topic and used acceptful debate items. Please don't suggest otherwise. ----moreno oso (talk) 15:05, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
To Fram, I understand now. WP:NSPORTS has a different notability threshhold than WP:ATHLETE did before. I think this is unwise (someone with one "A" international cap for most nations is quite likely to pass the GNG). While Sanmarinese internationals are a likely exception (along with Andorra and some other low-ranked nations), I don't think that change was made with concensus. I won't vote to keep this article as I doubt it will pass GNG, but I think we ought to be careful about the new wording of NSPORTS. Jogurney (talk) 15:07, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • (edit conflict)And, I am willing to accept it as a Friendly match as per the suggestion offered. Friendly matches are sanctioned matches with referees, time keepers, scorers, etc. Red cards can and will be enforced at such matches. Goes to NSPORTS. ----moreno oso (talk) 15:09, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
GNG is the higher requirement. Unfortunately, NSPORTS becomes the qualifying criteria for notability in this article's debate. ----moreno oso (talk) 15:12, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Specifically, Wikipedia:NSPORTS#Football_.28soccer.29 the soccer criteria is the tripwire. ----moreno oso (talk) 15:14, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep -seems to meet requirements and is well sourced. Dr. Blofeld White cat 17:08, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Which requirements is it supposed to meet? It doesn't meet WP:N, WP:BIO, WP:ATHLETE, or Wikipedia:Notability (sports)#Football (soccer). Fram (talk) 06:28, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep though I'd be happier if real sources were added to indicate his general notability. Sporting notability he does have, with his appearance for San Marino against Albania, per http://www.footballdatabase.eu/football.coupe.saint-marin.albanie.34147.en.html , albeit 45 minutes in a friendly. WP:NSPORTS is an essay, not a guideline, and the wording of the football section is still under discussion. The guideline concerning sportsperson notability is still, as I understand it, and for all its faults, WP:ATHLETE, and interpretation of that guideline has always been that full internationals are notable. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 13:55, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - I agree with Struway2. WP:NSPORTS wording is unclear and under discussion. WP:ATHLETE has been understood to include any competition in FIFA A-internationals, and Celli satisfies that requirement (even if he only played once). Jogurney (talk) 15:30, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I believe A-international games to be notable - representing your country at full international level. Subjective, maybe, but I don't believe there is a higher level one can play. Satisfied he played per article refs and this to back it up. Celli may not get a whole lot of coverage in England press, however the same argument could be applied to 4th level England players - they never get a mention here. As for the wording of the latest NSPORTS, A-internationals are officially sanctioned by FIFA, the governing body of the sport, results count towards international ranking, international ranking counts toward seeding for international tournaments, therefore, international competition. And anyone who thinks friendly is an alternative term for non-competitive should pull out a video of some recent pre-WC internationals.--ClubOranjeT 01:44, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I see all people citing either WP:NSPORT or WP:ATHLETE, but not WP:GNG, which is far more important indeed, and actually may overrides any other notability guideline around. Failure in meeting WP:GNG would result in the subject being deemed as non-notable, regardless of the fact he has played 45 minutes with a San Marino jersey, and I do not see anyone showing evidence this subject has actually received significant coverage from independent, reliable, third-party sources. --Angelo (talk) 19:54, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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