Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alana Lee (3rd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. – Juliancolton | ^Talk 15:15, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Alana Lee[edit]

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Lee was Miss Nevada in 2011. Being Miss Nevada is not enough on its own to establish notability. The sources here are weak. The one from the Las Vegas Review Journal that looks to be a good coverage of her time as Miss Nevada was written by her. Others are from PR newswire and other non-indepdent sources. The coverage is just for the one event of being a beauty pageant winner. My search on google came up with no additional sources that would be helpful toward establishing notability. Just a few more blog postings and a Linkedin page. The previous two nominations were about a totally different Alana Lee. John Pack Lambert (talk) 05:24, 25 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - I agree, I was unable to find sufficient content to establish notability or expand the article.--CaroleHenson (talk) 20:49, 2 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment This discussion was originally closed as no consensus because there is a lack of Wikipedia consensus on the matter on December 6th, after I presented some issues to the closer, and another editor argued that these should be considered on a case by case basis, the administrator who closed gave permission to reopen this discussion. I primarily state this so the time frame when this discussion has actually been open can be clearly seen. It was closed from early December 6th (about 7 GMT) to about 14 GMT on December 9th.John Pack Lambert (talk) 15:35, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Beauty pageants-related deletion discussions.John Pack Lambert (talk) 15:39, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Nevada-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 13:50, 10 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 13:50, 10 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, st170e^talk 01:38, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, —UY Scuti ^Talk 17:17, 19 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Here are sources from the article, the last four just added:

Lee, Alana (July 2, 2011). "My year representing Nevada in the Miss America Pageant". Las Vegas Sun. Retrieved October 25, 2012.
Johnson, Steve (July 5, 2011). "Dixie State College Senior Alana Lee Crowned Miss Nevada July 2nd". KCSG. Retrieved October 25, 2012.
Leach, Robin (January 11, 2012). "Miss Nevada Alana Lee: Miss America Pageant 'a phenomenal experience'". Las Vegas Sun. Retrieved October 25, 2012.
"Heartbreak and joy as 2012 Miss America Pageant hopefuls arrive in L.V." Las Vegas Sun. January 4, 2012. Retrieved 2013-04-04. The 22-year-old Mojave High School graduate was in the Top 5 Female Students of the Year and made the dean's list when she graduated last spring from Dixie State College magna cum laude with an associate degree. {{cite web}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
"Miss Nevada relatively new to pageants". Las Vegas Review-Journal. January 10, 2012. Retrieved 2016-12-20. ...her bedroom boasts not one, but three pictures of Jesus Christ. She's a devout member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Her father, state Sen. John Lee, D-North Las Vegas, nudged her into her first pageant at Dixie State College in St. George, Utah.
Amy Gardner; Karen Tumulty (October 17, 2011). "Miss Nevada outshines Romney (staff blog)". Washington Post. Retrieved 2016-12-20. Mitt Romney wasn't the big star at a campaign rally under a blazing Nevada sun at an office park a few miles off the Las Vegas strip.... No, the glamour emanated from Alana Lee, Miss Nevada 2011, who worked the packed suburban parking lot like a - well, like a candidate for president.... Lee will also lead the Pledge of Allegiance in advance of Tuesday's Republican presidential debate...at the Venetian casino on the Las Vegas strip
"Dixie State College Senior, Alana Lee, Crowned Miss Nevada". St. George News. July 6, 2011. Retrieved 2016-12-20. In her new role as Miss Nevada 2011, Lee will spend the next year traveling the state to promote her personal platform of patriotism.

Some of the things I found were that the previous AfDs were for someone else. Next, Lee's father has a Wikipedia article, which I have noted in the Alana Lee article by adding a See also. Unscintillating (talk) 03:51, 21 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Meets both WP:GNG and WP:ANYBIO#1 for notability. The remedy for editors who believe that this topic fails our notability guideline is to merge the reliable material as a mini-bio to a suitable target article such as Miss Nevada. Unscintillating (talk) 03:51, 21 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- The above assertions are just plain false. This does not meet GNG. The coverage fails under the one event test. It does not meet any bio. Even unscintillating does not believe we should have a stand alone article. To do anything but delete undermines the Wikipedia project and the need to have high quality articles.John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:58, 22 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  - Telling me what I believe is called WP:IDONTHEARYOU. Unscintillating (talk) 01:49, 23 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Delete -- a state-level pageant win hardly qualifies as WP:ANYBIO#1, as multiple past AfDs have abundantly demonstrated. The GNG is not met as the sources are all local and coverage is routine, as in "local person gets award". Nothing else stands out about this contestant, and in such case, article on state winners are routinely deleted. K.e.coffman (talk) 06:56, 21 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Miss Nevada seems to be one of the more-prominent state pageants given the presence of Robin Leach in the Las Vegas news industry, so the claim that Miss Nevada is "hardly" well-known and significant doesn't seem to have a foundation.
If past AfDs are not based on policy, they are simply WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS.
WP:GNG is based on the presence of reliable sources, and says nothing about local/routine sources. "Local sources" is a concept in WP:AUD in WP:CORPORATION, and "routine sources" is a concept in WP:EVENT. This argument seems to require that Alana Lee is both a corporation and an event. The "all sources are local" argument looks out of place, as it is not reasonable to argue that St. George, Utah [123 miles (198 km)] and Washington, DC [2,085 miles (3,355 km)] are local to Las Vegas.
The argument that this is an event seems also to be without a foundation as more than one reference above shows that her reign lasted a year.
Finally, editors for whom non-notability is a concern can volunteer to do the work to merge the reliable material to a suitable target such as Miss Nevada. Thank you, Unscintillating (talk) 01:33, 22 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There is no worthwhile reliable material beyond the fact that she won and other minimal information already available at the Miss Nevada page. There is no need for a merger, there is a need to delete with all possible speed.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:30, 22 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

What is the applicable policy for the situation from the viewpoint stated? Is it deletion? (See WP:ATD.) Unscintillating (talk) 03:49, 22 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The claim that Miss Nevada is special is simply junk, the type of juhnk unscintilating is spewing is these discussions. He wants to plead that every Miss some state is notable, and then make special pleadings for some. Well his argument is rubbish. No Miss some state pageants are notable to in and of themselves establish notability for the winners, none. It does not rise to a level to pass any bio on its own. This was clearly shown by the actual comments to the RfC on pageant winners back in August, and is being shown by the current one. Winning a state pageant is not enough on its own, and nothing else here is enough to pass GNG.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:37, 22 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The WP:ATD is not "junk" and "rubbish", it is it a "widely accepted standard that all editors should normally follow". There is no WP:IAR argument that beauty pageants are a threat to the encylopedia that they should be WP:IAR deleted outside of WP:Deletion policy. Unscintillating (talk) 03:49, 22 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Miss America may qualify under ANYBIO1, but not state-level wins. The sources bear this out. K.e.coffman (talk) 07:07, 22 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

So Miss America "may qualify under ANYBIO1", which means the argument is based on not knowing if Miss America is a well-known and significant award. Unscintillating (talk) 00:47, 23 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The Miss America award is "well-known" but whether or not it's "significant" is open to debate :-). K.e.coffman (talk) 08:36, 25 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Your posts have just said that sources show that Miss Nevada is either not well known or not significant or both, while the significance of Miss America is in doubt. What are these sources, and how do they show this? Unless you are arguing that significance has changed, do these sources cover the period from 1960–1980? Thank you, Unscintillating (talk) 15:07, 25 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Coment Of the sources listed, only the Washington Post might come close to adding towards GNG. However that is only one source, not multiple like needed to pass GNG. Anyway this is really just routine coverage of the comings and goings during an election, not significant coverage of Lee herself. There is just not enough here to pass the General Notability Guidelines. Passing notice from one paper at one event during a persidential campaign is not enough to justify an encyclopedia article. This comes under Wikipedia not being a newspaper.John Pack Lambert (talk) 13:42, 23 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

GNG only requires coverage that is not trivial, such as coverage more than is in phone directories. It doesn't need to be entire articles. There has to be enough non-trivial coverage for it to be significant, which is generally understood as "two good articles". Claiming that the sources here don't pass GNG reduces Wikipedia notability to opinions by self-selected editors who are not bound by metrics. (Or perhaps you have some metrics of which I'm not aware.)
Nor given the policy [[WP:ATD}] is Wikipedia notability the core issue here, because the remedy for non-notability is exactly what your post says you want, which is to not have a standalone "encyclopedia article" on the topic. In effect, the core issue becomes, "If non-notability is an issue, who is volunteering to do the work to merge the material?" The argument for deletion is then the WP:IAR argument, "Since editors are writing standalone articles instead of mini-bios in suitable target topics, the community has the right to intervene and destroy their work." Unscintillating (talk) 15:07, 25 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to Miss Nevada, which is my standard view of what should be done with non-notable pageant winners who nonetheless won notable pageants. Redirects are cheap, and it is possible someone could search for the woman. I don't think there is much material worth merging, but if there is, it can be done after the redirect since the page history is intact. TonyBallioni (talk) 15:29, 25 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Delete and then Redirect as it's clear she's not independently notable and as such is not convincing for a saved article, we've established these cases as it is and there's simply nothing else to suggest this is an exception to the numerous others. SwisterTwister talk 08:27, 26 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - and Salt. This subject has already been deleted at AfD twice. Enough already. National Miss America is inherently notable, state level pageant winners are not. Coverage is ordinary news reportage akin to local coverage of city council politicians, etc. Carrite (talk) 14:55, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- To be fair, as I said at the close of the nomination "the previous two nominations were about a totally different Alana Lee".John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:20, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- And I said the equivalent thing in a post above, "...the previous AfDs were for someone else." Unscintillating (talk) 19:08, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- @Carrite: As for "local coverage of city council politicians", why does the first page of ghits for ["alana lee" -site:.com -site:.edu -site:.org "Miss Nevada"] include URLs from

Canada,
Montenegro,
New Zealand,
Ireland,
Australia,
United Kingdom, and
India?

Unscintillating (talk) 19:00, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Delete The given sources, both in the article as added to since this AfD started and in this discussion itself, are unpersuasive for establishing notability under WP:GNG. Where there is significant coverage, it is either not independent (e.g., Las Vegas Sun articles) or not reliable (e.g., blogs and social media). Where it is independent and reliable coverage, it is not significant (e.g., the Washington Post blog article). Nothing satisfies all three prongs of WP:GNG. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 20:20, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) (1) Las Vegas Sun satisfies the requirements of independence of WP:GNG. (2) The Washington Post staff blog satisfies the requires of non-trivial (substantial) coverage of WP:GNG. (3) This !vote asserts that the topic is non-notable, without making an argument for deletion that includes WP:Deletion policy#Alternatives to deletion, so does not attempt a deletion argument. Unscintillating (talk) 20:46, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Nowhere is making an explicit WP:ATD consideration a requirement for a contribution to AfD discussions. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 20:48, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - not enough in-depth coverage to show she is notable enough on her own. Eggishorn's comments pretty much sum it up. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 20:37, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. State level pagent winner isn't inherently notable and there isn't enough significant coverage to make up for it. Niteshift36 (talk) 21:30, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.