Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/ADCC Submission Wrestling World Championship

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. (Non-administrator closure) NorthAmerica1000 01:01, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

ADCC Submission Wrestling World Championship[edit]

ADCC Submission Wrestling World Championship (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Seems to be a non-notable grappling event with no citations. Seems like advertising.

Procedural note: This was listed without the afd2 template (in a way that broke the AFD log formatting). I've taken the liberty of tidying this up as a housekeeping action. CrazyAces489 is the nominator, and provided the above (originally unsigned) nomination justification; I have no opinion on the merits of the nomination. Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 21:13, 1 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions. NorthAmerica1000 02:21, 2 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Wrestling-related deletion discussions. NorthAmerica1000 02:21, 2 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. NorthAmerica1000 02:21, 2 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of United Arab Emirates-related deletion discussions. NorthAmerica1000 02:22, 2 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Fails to meet WP:NMMA or WP:MANOTE. CrazyAces489 (talk) 06:48, 3 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Note to closing admin: This is the nominator. Melchoir (talk) 02:28, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • WP:MANOTE has explicit notability standards for arts, styles, schools, organizations, and individual martial artists, but not events or tournaments. WP:NMMA doesn't have standards for anything other than individual mixed martial artists. If no specific standards for a particular kind of article are defined in the narrowly subject-focused standards, then the reasonable thing to do is not to default to deleting it. The reasonable thing to do is to apply general Wikipedia notability standards. This article definitely seems to meet them with all the supplemental sources this discussion has unearthed. Keep. -Toptomcat (talk) 23:14, 26 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • Note: struck duplicate !vote from the nominator above. The nomination itself is the !vote, and only one !vote is allowed. NorthAmerica1000 01:04, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Delete This is a well known event, but my search didn't turn up significant independent coverage. What I found either wasn't independent or was just reporting of results.Mdtemp (talk) 18:55, 7 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Keep Sources have now been provided. Most are not independent or significant, but the volume is enough to be convincing.Mdtemp (talk) 18:15, 28 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Keep As Mdtemp said its a well known event - but lacking coverage. I sit just on the other side of the fence.Peter Rehse (talk) 19:23, 7 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Note: relisted after original close, per Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2014 October 11 -- RoySmith (talk) 00:27, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep It's a valid concern when an article has no sources. Thankfully, sources have been found during the deletion review by trying the right queries in the right databases. These sources describe the event itself:
    • Teague, Hywel (September 30, 2011), "Make way for new wave of JJ practicioners", ESPN.com
    • Snowden, Jonathan; Shields, Kendall (2010), The MMA Encyclopedia, ECW Press
    • Garcia, Marcelo (2007), The X-Guard: Gi & No Gi Jiu-Jitsu, Victory Belt Publishing
    • Gracie, Royler (2003), Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Submission Grappling Techniques, Invisible Cities Press
    • Sheridan, Sam (2010), The Fighter's Mind: Inside the Mental Game, Atlantic Monthly Press, pp. 59–60. Two paragraphs of description, focused on the 2003 event.
    • Buffer, Bruce, It's Time!: My 360-Degree View of the UFC, pp. 137–139. Eight paragraphs of description, focused on the 1999 event.
    • Frias, Daniel (28 May 2005), "6>Grapplers to fight for crown", Press-Telegram. 674 words, focused on Renzo Gracie and the 2005 event.
    • Frias, Daniel (30 May 2005), "Wrestling wins a family affair", Press-Telegram. 725 words, focused on Renzo Gracie and the 2005 event.
The above sources are enough to satisfy the General Notability Guideline. There are also peripheral sources that mention the event and speak to its reputation. These are somewhat less important for AfD, but they will still be useful:
  • ESPN "The highly regarded Abu Dhabi Combat Club (ADCC) was instituted by Sheikh Tahnoon Bin Zayed Al Nahyan in the United Arab Emirates in 1998." [[1]]. "The top grapplers in the world congregated in England this past weekend for the 2011 ADCC Submission Wrestling World Championship. A bi-annual event, it's the most prestigious submission grappling tournament in the world and attracts fighters from across the globe."[[2]].
  • Sports Illustrated "A year later, he failed to let go of a compromised limb during a submission grappling match at the famed Abu Dhabi Combat Club world championships." [[3]] "Einemo is a Brazilian jiu-jitsu black belt who shined on one of the sport's big stages, the ADCC Submission Wrestling tournament, winning the championship in 2003" [[4]]
  • Bleacher Report "In late 2002, Bravo entered the North American Trails for the ADCC Submission Grappling Tournament, a qualifier for the toughest no gi competition in the world." [[5]]
  • SB Nation "One of the most prestigious grappling competitions in the world lands in China for the first time on October" [[6]]
  • Sherdog "Started in 1998, ADCC is the world’s most prestigious grappling competition. The world championships take place every two years and tournaments are held in five weight categories for the male competitors. Additionally, an open-weight “absolute” tournament is held, pitting top competitors from each weight class against one another to decide the competition’s supreme grappler." [[7]]
  • Fox Sports "Galvao is a two-time world champion as well as an ADCC (Abu Dhabi Combat Club) champion multiple times over including a championship in the absolute weight division." [[8]]
  • Yahoo! Sports "A jiu-jitsu black belt, Abu Dhabi Combat Club (ADCC) gold medalist, and multiple time Mundials winner, Souza is perhaps the best jiu-jitsu competitor inside the UFC today" [[9]]
These sources demonstrate that the event is notable in both the ordinary sense and in the technical sense of Wikipedia:Notability, and they will solve the problem that the article had no citations. Melchoir (talk) 02:25, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep - Sources are plentiful. As an editor that has contributed to Mixed martial arts (MMA) articles, this venue is prominent in the world of Grappling - a core element in MMA along with Striking techniques. Winning it, is a very prestigious accolade on an MMA fighter's resume. Current UFC middleweight champion Chris Weidman UFC Official page notes his participation in this event, even though he didn't win a medal http://www.ufc.com/fighter/Chris-Weidman Bigbaby23 (talk) 07:24, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep - As previously noted, sources are plentiful and for anyone (including myself) who is involved with martial arts, this is a highly prestigious event. Deleting this article is a substantial error. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.40.234.82 (talk) 18:53, 24 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I am not changing my week keep vote above but all the text above has not resulted in any improvement to the underlying problem. The article remains completely unsourced. If that doesn't change I can not see any claims to notability.Peter Rehse (talk) 21:04, 25 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • WP:N notability is a measure of a topic defined by the world-at-large; and not by article content including sourcing.  Compare with what is said at WP:Deletion guidelines for administrators#Rough consensus, which states,
Unscintillating (talk) 02:52, 26 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
commentThis article is one of many tournaments which show no signs of notability. There are passing mentions of the tournament in some articles but honestly it is a glamour article or even advertising. This article is additionally completely unsourced. CrazyAces489 (talk) 12:18, 27 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
IF a keep result is made, I would support merging the articles that were deleted into this one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/1998_ADCC_Submission_Wrestling_World_Championship but I still don't see the need for even this article. CrazyAces489 (talk) 12:22, 27 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: The tournament is generally agreed to be very prestigious. The UFC fighter profiles, as mentioned above, list mere participation in the tournament. A lot of the champions are big names in grappling. Here are a few sources that I haven't yet added to the page:
http://mmaworldexpo.com/press-release/ -Characterized as "Most Prestigious name in Grappling"
http://www.onthemat.com/node/9426 "Second best grappling tournament in the UK"
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2011/9/21/2441195/adcc-abu-dhabi-combat-club-2011-submission-grappling-bjj-why-should-you-care "Super-elite, invitation only competition", "The hundred best grapplers in the world" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hertzyscowicz (talk • contribs) 15:47, 27 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • To add: there's a documentary about the ADCC called The History of Submission Fighting in the works [10], which should cover one criterion of notability if it's ever published. One thing this discussion higlights is that there is no notability guideline for tournaments. Hertzyscowicz (talk) 17:05, 27 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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