Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/9/11 denial

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was speedy delete as vandalism, disruption, and a bogus copy-and-paste "move". Neverneutral (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is another account of DavidYork71 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Uncle G (talk) 10:50, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

9/11 denial[edit]

9/11 denial (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) –

(View log) WP:OR, WP:POVFORK of 9/11 Truth Movement. While the view has merit, WP:SNOW applies. Weregerbil (talk) 08:35, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete - Changed my mind... I stand by what I wrote below about the similarities to Holocaust denial. However, if it's just a content fork with no clear plan to differentiate it from the original article then this was done in the wrong way (i.e. via a copy-and-paste move) rather than by a Requested Move proposal. The place for this discussion is not AFD as I insisted earlier but rather as part of a Requested Move proposal. --Richard (talk) 09:04, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy delete The view has no merit. Like you said, POVFORK, but also an attack. This is a copy of an existing page 9/11 truth movement, reworded to be disparaging to those considered part of the group "9/11 truth movement". Read the articles side by side. The user simply made small wording changes, disparaging this group as "denialists". I have no strong feelings about this or that 9/11 page, I merely saw +52,654 in the recent changes. When someone creates a 50K page out of nowhere, a reasonable person like myself tends to give it more than a cursory glance, and realize "golly gee whiz, I think maybe, just maybe, this isn't a legitimate page at all". It's not an "attempt at a neutral article", because it sprung up out of nowhere, with POV-based wording changes TheBilly (talk) 08:42, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • It is no more an 'attack' than Holocaust denial is an attack on Holocaust deniers. If you find the the article lacking NPOV in some aspects then freely accept the invitation to remedy it. But don't just smack down those who are bold enough to develop some distinguished content in the encyclopedia. And don't just reactively act to kill and suppress what emotionally you feel you don't like and can't control.Neverneutral (talk)
  • Comment - Reserving judgment for now, this comment simply presents my perspective on this issue. I disagree with Weregerbil that WP:SNOW applies.
It's the height of arrogance to say something is WP:SNOW -before- there have even been any votes on it. If that was the case then why have others come out here admitting that the Holocaust denial analogy has at least some persuasive merit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Neverneutral (talk • contribs)
TheBilly's reasoning about 50K articles not reasonably appearing out of nowhere is valid. Clearly, Wikipedia should not have two pages with nearly identical content. The reason that I denied the speedy delete request originally was that I was not aware of the other page. However, after being advised of the existence of the other page, I still felt that it was not obvious which page title was NPOV and which was POV. Is it NPOV to assert that there is a 9/11 Truth Movement and POV to assert that this is really 9/11 denialism? If so, then why do we have an article called Holocaust denial? Why not call it Holocaust Truth Movement or some such title? At some point, Wikipedia's NPOV stance has to avoid giving a POV undue weight and reflect the consensus of scholarly opinion. That's why we have an article titled Holocaust denial which documents the phenomenon which exists even if the arguments of the Holocaust denialists are not generally accepted as valid. --Richard (talk) 08:52, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
So it starts as 50k. So what. By critical evaluation it subsequently gets larger or smaller depending on what contributors coming by essentially must stay or must go. And the only reason it comes on the scene at first blush as rather large and with some content in common with the 'truth' article is that i'd made quite a few changes but then I saved it while I had to answer the phone and before I came back and made quite a few more changes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Neverneutral (talk • contribs)
  • Well, the reason I disgareed with you wasn't over the POV-nature of the article. I wouldn't try to delete Holocuast Denial, and I didn't try to delete 9/11 truth movement. I don't have a problem with those articles. They have a long history of a completely different nature, and any content and neutrality problems should be progressively worked on. The reason this article caught my attention was its highly suspicious nature, and the reason I nominated it for speedy deletion (which I would never think appropriate for "Holocaust Denial" or "9/11 truth movement") was not that it was non-neutral, but that it was non-neutral and part of an attack. If "denialist" isn't dramatic enough, then replace it in your mind with other accusations like "defeatist", "pinko commie", and so on. It seems clear that the term "denialist" was used throughout this new, slightly modified version as a politically polarized disparaging term like "liberal pansy" or "conservative nutjob". Unlike articles about abstract ideas or general classifications about beliefs, however, (liberl vs conservative, any given religion, etc), this is about a specific group (although apparently only loosely organized), and so since it was targeting a group with disparaging language, it seems to be an attack TheBilly (talk) 09:11, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • 'Denial' as a concept is not perjorative and you know that very well because we have Holocaust denial to cover people putting out false stories about the deaths of millions of people in Europe in WW2. Very unworthy also from that point on for you to be putting these other epithets in my mouth ('pinko', 'pansy', 'nutjob'). The article is about the acknowledged phenomena of 9/11 denial, not any other imaginative epithet you want to dream up.Neverneutral (talk) 10:09, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom, seems like a very clear POV fork.P4k (talk) 09:22, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy Delete because it's a copy pasted text from 9/11 Truth Movement with changing words from truth to denial (and other similar words). It's a biased POV from the creator. At first, (s)he tried to create the fork 9/11 denialism article, which I redirected to "9/11 Truth Movement" and I asked him/her to file a request at WP:RM if (s)he wished to change the article name. (S)he did and the request is still there at this time, while the article has been speedy deleted "(CSD G6: Housekeeping revert copy/paste page-move vandalism)". So this article is a re-created one and is still valid for CSD G6. Dekisugi (talk) 09:29, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • No need to delete We have concluded a renaming discussion on the talkpage of 9/11 Truth movement and the outcome has been the recommendation (by at least 2-1 margin) that we will rename it as 9/11 denial. 9/11 denial is a real and acknowledged phenomena. Just imagine you were one of the families of the 3000 people who died and people went about trying to say that, effectively, they died for a lie. And you're all-too-speedy to try and stifle this awareness because substantial work has been done which distinguishes the content and focus of this article from that of the misnamed "truth movement". Seriously show some respect for the dead and have a look at yourself people. Deleting this and giving the opportunity and precedent for others to reframe/retitle Holocaust denial as the Holocaust Truth Movement. Is that what you are about?Neverneutral (talk) 10:09, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe you should give the discussion more than a day before suggesting that it's been "concluded."P4k (talk) 10:26, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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