Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/27712 Pacific Coast Highway

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge‎ to Tadao Ando. I see a consensus to Merge this article. After the Merge is completed, you can take the Redirect to RFD to discuss its deletion and point to this AFD discussion. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:24, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

27712 Pacific Coast Highway[edit]

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Notability is WP:BLP1E only. Other coverage is WP:ROUTINE. TarnishedPath^talk 01:51, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians and California. TarnishedPath^talk 01:51, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom. This real estate is sitting on the WP:COAT of its owners. On its own, despite its architect, the subject fails WP:GNG because it has nothing notable to it other than its current owners. Its title itself is a serious BLP privacy concern (not rectifiable by normal editing without oversight). It would even be a BLP problem for subsequent non-notable owners (and I mean: *totally private* people with their home address as a Wikipedia title). JFHJr (㊟) 02:21, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

PS. And WP:NOTNEWS. Point back to the fact that this subject has zero sustained coverage over its existence. JFHJr (㊟) 02:29, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, looks like a solid GNG pass, not really sure what these other two are talking about (for example none of the coverage seems to fall under WP:ROUTINE and BLP1E is part of Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons... and the subject here is one of the most expensive houses in the world not a person). Will expand from coverage not currently in article. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 02:35, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Horse Eye's Back, it seems to me that all the coverage that is not WP:ROUTINE concerns the sale of the property to Beyoncé and Jay-Z for $200 million, making this WP:BLP1E. An article doesn't have to be a WP:BLP itself to have BLP content in it. TarnishedPath^talk 02:44, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The topic of this article is not the sale (an event), this article is about the house. BLP1E does not apply to objects. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 02:46, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The sale (an event) is the only notability the article has. Remove the sale and there would be no article. This article is about two BLP's house. Therefore BLP1E applies. TarnishedPath^talk 02:50, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Excuse me if I don't accept that extremely flimsy logic. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 02:54, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That... isn't what BLP1E is for. It simply doesn't apply to articles that aren't themselves BLPs. (Agree that this probably shouldn't have an article but BLP1E is not the reason why). Elli (talk | contribs) 03:50, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is incorrect to say BLP1E isn't applicable to a building. Everything here, including talk pages, is subject to WP:BLP and its collateral policies, especially when it's under a notability question. I'll also note the event is not just the purchase, but amounts to mere ownership, and "events" may last a long time. That's the point of seeking enduring notability in the real estate itself and not the owner, or even the sale, in terms of a standalone article. JFHJr (㊟) 01:13, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:BLP applies everywhere, but the effect of WP:BLP1E is only on biographical articles of low profile individuals. The text of that section explicitly cautions so: WP:BLP1E should be applied only to biographies of living people, or those who have recently died, and to biographies of low-profile individuals. I note that we do, however, reach essentially the same outcome around enduring notability; I via WP:N. Rotary Engine ^talk 01:49, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep but move to ‘Beyoncé and Jay-Z’s California house’ The house is notable- is has a notable architect and broke the record for its sale price, but is currently titled with the buildings address. WP:BLPPRIVACY says “articles should not include postal addresses” and “If you see personal information such as phone numbers, addresses, account numbers, etc. in a BLP or anywhere on Wikipedia, edit the page to remove it”. In fact, I’ll move the page right now, so this might disrupt this AfD listing.TheSpacebook (talk) 02:40, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You'd need WP:OVERSIGHT with a page move, right? Can't have the address in the title history. May as well WP:BLOWITUP *if* the subject (the real estate) is independently notable. Meh? JFHJr (㊟) 02:46, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

PS. Notable persons's belonging: WP:INHERIT takes a lot. I don't think this wins. But maybe it might. We shall see. Thanks as always, and cheers. JFHJr (㊟) 02:48, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And I struck your move proposal since you went ahead and did that during AfD. Usually, it's best to be patient enough for an outcome. JFHJr (㊟) 03:24, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And now I've un-struck your move comment, since someone stepped in and undid your mid-discussion page move. Let's be patient and wait for this to reach a consensus. If it helps not to watch, don't watch! JFHJr (㊟) 22:45, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2024 April 1. —^{cyberbot I}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 02:48, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Merge without redirect of the original title to Beyoncé or Jay-Z, whichever can be determined to have a more encyclopedic connection with the property. The house is not notable because $200 million was paid for it; it is noteworthy that these people bought a house for that much, but this would have been true no matter which house they paid that amount for. It is one of countless high-priced houses owned by wealthy entertainers, designed by an architect who designs high-end houses. Most of these sales get some kind of coverage in the trade papers, and some make it into more general papers due to interest in the celebrity, not the house. None of these things make it independently notable. BD2412 T 03:06, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What happens to this (moved) name space, and the previous name space with the address? Shall we delete them both? Due to the page move during AfD discussion, there are now two unneeded name spaces, IMO. JFHJr (㊟) 03:31, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We have the tools to remove privacy-invading content from article/redirect histories. BD2412 T 12:15, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Merge with redirect from original title only to Tadao Ando. The new title is pure gossip journalism and inadmissable under BLP as a privacy violation. The house is marginally notable on grounds of the high price (additional coverage that wasn't there when I looked at the article and went searching: Architectural Digest, SFGate); the high price is in part due to the architect, and there is some coverage of the original owners' use of it to display their art collection, e.g. this spat over a large outside sculpture, Malibu Times. It can be a referenced line in the list of his works, to which "27712 Pacific Coast Highway" is a reasonable redirect, and there is no reason under BLP to expunge the history providing the one line does not name the current owners. Yngvadottir (talk) 03:30, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Failing a delete, I think this is the best target page for a redirect proposal. Thanks, Yngvadottir! JFHJr (㊟) 03:33, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just to let you know, that this article recently became active as a result of a discussion on the BLP policy talk page, it may interest you: Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons#Publication of Living Individuals Home Addresses TheSpacebook (talk) 03:35, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, JFHJr. I found it listed at Tadao Ando#Projects, unlinked it, ref'd it, named it for the clients and moved it to a different year based on one of those sources. (Most press coverage of the sale appears to go back to a TMZ report and judging by widespread omission, that didn't give the completion year. I haven't hunted for it.) I note that there's another Malibu house with a star purchaser already listed, also unlinked and listed by the commissioning owner. Yngvadottir (talk) 08:54, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Architecture-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 04:12, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to Tadao Ando as one of his noteworthy accomplishments. Most of the participants in this debate have made valid points, but I find WP:NOTNEWS and WP:ONEEVENT to be the most relevant policies here. The recent sale indeed made the news, though that "news" doesn't get too far beyond standard celebrity gossip. It could be argued that the record price is an achievement for the architect rather than the buyers. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (TALK|CONTRIBS) 13:40, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do you mean the seller not the architect? The property was primarily valued at the astronomical sum because of its location not its architect, note that the previous most expensive property sold in California was the one *next door* which was not an Ando. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:13, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So what? Merge anyway because the house under discussion is not notable for all the reasons stated by everyone. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (TALK|CONTRIBS) 15:51, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Noting that WP:ONEEVENT & WP:BLP1E apply to people, not properties. Rotary Engine ^talk 04:46, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Make sure you know who you're responding to and when. I did not cite WP:BLP1E myself. When I cited WP:ONEEVENT yesterday, the article was called "Beyoncé and Jay-Z’s California house" and it was full of text about those two celebrities, so both of those policies are/were relevant anyway. Meanwhile, moving the article's title in the middle of a deletion discussion sure doesn't help much. You guys figure it out. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (TALK|CONTRIBS) 15:49, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand, how would either the title or the content make WP:ONEEVENT relevant? ONEEVENT is about "People notable for only one event" and neither of the celebrities mentioned fall into that category. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:53, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see why the principal undergirding WP:ONEEVENT would not apply to a building that was only covered in the media in connection with a single event. An example would be Francklyn Cottage (where President James A. Garfield died, having been taken there in hopes of recovery from a gunshot would). BD2412 T 23:49, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If, in independent, reliable sources, there is sufficient depth of documentation of Francklyn Cottage to satisfy WP:GNG, why should an article not be written on it? Similar to Garfield Tea House; presumably also only noted because of its link to Garfield's death. Rotary Engine ^talk 01:55, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Merge with redirect from original title only to Tadao Ando; per Yngvadottir et al. Mention the record setting purchase at Beyoncé &/or Jay-Z; likely without the address. At best, barely borderline notable as a separate topic - there is an absence of independent, reliable, secondary sourcing providing in-depth documentation of the subject. Certainly, however, noteworthy in the articles mentioned. Rotary Engine ^talk 10:50, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For clarity, I am also comfortable with a merge without redirect. I am not comfortable with a redirect from "Beyoncé and Jay-Z’s California house". Rotary Engine ^talk 23:13, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add: Fails WP:NBUILD which requires significant in-depth coverage by reliable, third-party sources to establish notability. Rotary Engine ^talk 07:09, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Administrator note Per the various concerns expressed here I have restored the page to its original title. Primefac (talk) 13:50, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. I welcome this, had I have known the address couldn’t be redacted through oversight, I wouldn’t have moved it. TheSpacebook (talk) 13:53, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much. JFHJr (㊟) 00:08, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete an ATD is fine, but the house's notability is essentially inherited and fails GNG on its own. SportingFlyer T·C 16:06, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. It's only noteworthy at most, with the WP:WEIGHT of a short mention in the owner/s article/s and/or the architect's article. I'm not seeing a compelling reason for a redirect but realize others here want that. JFHJr (㊟) 22:52, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Many thanks to Primefac for reverting the article move and deleting the ill-advised title. I see the text has at some point been revised so that the intro is all about the current owners. Since I strongly disagree that their names are the basis for its notability and I'm advocating merge without history deletion, if nobody else does, I'm going to rewrite the article, returning it to its original focus on the record sale price and the architecture. Yngvadottir (talk) 21:03, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to Tadao Ando per those above. The current title (the home's street address) is more a BLP violation than titling it by its current occupants. Do any of the sources actually give the exact address? It looks like they're just saying "a home on the Pacific Coast Highway". If the structure doesn't have its own name then titling it by its notable residents seems entirely reasonable, and preferable to giving the exact location of a private residence as a title. But I agree that the recent coverage is not about the home but about who purchased it, and while we do usually keep information about record-setting things, I don't think "most expensive real estate" is really a valid record in this economy, and there's very little written about this from an architectural perspective. It amounts to celebrity gossip. On the other hand we have two articles about Taylor Swift's houses, so maybe it's valid, but it should be at a different title. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:55, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just a thought, but if we were looking for a BLP-free title, something like 2014 Tadao Ando Pacific Coast Highway house would do it. BD2412 T 12:12, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm reading a potential consensus for a Merge to Tadao Ando, so another rename might not be necessary if said merge is carried out in a timely manner after close. TarnishedPath^talk 13:30, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.