Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2023–24 Liberal Party of Australia preselections

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎. I see a consensus to Delete this article. That doesn't mean that an article on this subject could never exist, it's just a comment on this specific version of this article. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 08:27, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

2023–24 Liberal Party of Australia preselections[edit]

[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

An article like this is inappropriate as it deals with the inner workings of the Liberal Party and thus can't possibly ever be comprehensive and will always contain ad-hoc results. The factions are largely original research and are not official, unlike the impression this page gives off. There are no other Wikipedia pages for the preselection processes of political parties in Australia (that I know of), and for good reason: They are a time sink, never will be comprehensive, and the information can be covered better elsewhere on Wikipedia, such as on the articles for individual politicians. Steelkamp (talk) 07:32, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Politics and Australia. Steelkamp (talk) 07:32, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: Agree with nom, as only spotty and second-hand reporting of preselection ever occurs - ie that we never get fresh and direct data from returning officers published in an official manner. Another problem for this kind of holistic article about preselection contests is that it cannot reasonably meet a satisfactory level of completeness. For example, Liberal preselections for the seats of Parramatta and Werriwa have occurred, but there is no way of us knowing whether those were contested or not, or what sort of contest took place if one did - thus making an article such as this impossible to be at least at a level of completeness necessary for Wikipedia. I know from my own original research that the contest for Parramatta preselection had multiple candidates but has not been reported in any reliable sources. Yet another problem with this, also present in the local government articles initiated by the original creator of this page, is that it treats these contests as one big election, when they are in fact separate contests unrelated to one another. Nonetheless, I think it would be entirely appropriate for preselections as reported by the press to be more prominent on Wikipedia - it should be on the pages of MPs and significant candidates instead though. Open to see what others reckon. J2m5 (talk) 09:37, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, the notable contests could go to either MP's or rivals pages, or perhaps to electoral division pages. Newystats (talk) 20:20, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It would be untenable for these results to be on articles for MPs, except as prose. As a repository of election results, these could be on article for the results of the electoral division, such as Electoral results for the Division of Sydney, but also in an article like Results of the 2022 Australian federal election in New South Wales. The general election results are duplicated in the articles for the electoral division and for the election itself, so the preselection results can follow this example. If we have enough preselection results for a particular division, we can have articles like Preselection results for the Division of Sydney. We may also, instead of having an article for each party about preselections, combine them into one article, such as Preselections for the 2025 Australian federal election. Onetwothreeip (talk) 20:46, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are rarely those results for us to publish. I would like to see you try making "preselection results for the Division of Sydney" – you would hit a wall almost instantly. For the record, I want this information to be included as prose on candidate pages. J2m5 (talk) 01:05, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would not create such an article, as contested preselections are too sporadic for any given seat. Meanwhile, contested preselections of an entire general election would have enough content to easily justify an article. Onetwothreeip (talk) 05:09, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Previous discussion has occurred on this at Wikipedia talk: WikiProject Australian politics#Preselection article appropriateness for Wikipedia. J2m5 (talk) 09:40, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom. The successful candidates will end up in the various articles on the next Federal election, and the sourcing isn't really sufficient for an article on how that particular sausage was made. Nick-D (talk) 09:42, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep This article is a fantastic idea. Why shouldn't we cover preselection elections? The information can be displayed differently - I agree with concerns about identifying political factions, for example - but this is great information for readers to be provided with. These are essentially the same as American primary elections, but with much smaller electorates, of which Wikipedia's coverage is very strong. We have reliable media sources reporting on the results of these preselection contests, which are the same sources that are good enough to cite everything else we write about.

I don't need to remind everyone that deletion discussions concern notability for the topic itself, rather than the current state of the article. This is obviously a notable subject, as it is covered broadly across Australian political news media. Onetwothreeip (talk) 20:26, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have made some revisions to the article, addressing some of the issues myself and others have found, and also changed the title to Liberal Party preselections of the next Australian federal election to align with other Australian election articles. Onetwothreeip (talk) 20:54, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Deletion discussions do not only concern notability but also an whether the format of an article is appropriate for Wikipedia. Australian preselections are not like American primary elections at all. Calling them "preselection elections" illustrates a fallacy here – a good number of the most important preselections are not elections at all but direct appointments. This article will never reach a standard of completeness that is appropriate for Wikipedia. Most electorates will be left unknown as to what preselection happened there. The information covered by this article is notable - it should instead be covered by candidate and MP articles where those individuals are notable themselves. J2m5 (talk) 01:03, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A discussion about format is very different to one about deleting the article. The information can be noted on articles of candidates, but we also have articles of election results.
- Let's change this article to one for all preselection elections for the 2025 election, not only the Liberals.
- The article should only contain information that can be obtained from reliable media sources.
- No factions in the election boxes, but relevant factional affiliations can be discussed in prose. Parties with official factions (such as Labor) could be included in the election boxes, but I would rather not.
- No election boxes for unopposed preselections.
What's the fallacy with "preselection elections"? There is no such fallacy, and I use this term to distinguish from unopposed preselections. If we have results for all the preselection elections that are reported in the media, then the article is complete. Onetwothreeip (talk) 05:06, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: this coverage would mostly interest political party (just Liberal at this stage) members and only for the limited time span before an election where sitting members are not challenged. Changing the page to Preselections of the next Australian federal election hasn't helped. We don't have a date for that. When the elction happens, this page becomes redundant. The more important votes for each seat and all candidates (not just the major parties) will be rcordered in other pages such as Results of the 2022 Australian federal election in Victoria. Teraplane (talk) 03:47, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
These results are reported in mainstream Australian newspapers, they obviously appeal to broader audiences. Onetwothreeip (talk) 10:48, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete it does seem like original research. I think some preselections might be notable if they receive national coverage but none here would. SportingFlyer T·C 10:20, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What content is original research? The preselection results are sourced from national media sources. Onetwothreeip (talk) 20:23, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete supposed coverage in Australian media is limited usually to if there is a controversy, but otherwise the preselected candidate can have their name mentioned in the relevant elections article. LibStar (talk) 01:22, 13 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.