Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2020–21 Stal Stalowa Wola season

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. At issue here is the extent to which non-routine coverage crosses the GNG threshold. Based on the nominator's withdrawal, the new sources that did come to light, and the fact that, after two relists, there is little momentum towards deletion, I am closing this as keep. Admittedly, it's a borderline "no consensus," but the nominator's withdrawal tipped the balance in my reading of the discussion. Thanks to all participants. Go Phightins! 12:00, 10 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

2020–21 Stal Stalowa Wola season[edit]

[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

As well written as this article is, I don't actually think that this meets our notability criteria for football seasons. It certainly doesn't get presumed notability from WP:NSEASONS as the Polish 4th tier is certainly not a top professional league. The coverage is also not enough to meet WP:GNG. The season gets in-depth coverage from the club's own website but, from secondary sources, the coverage is fairly minor. I tried searching for some match reports for this season and found that this and this were representative. I don't believe that there is enough evidence of WP:GNG here. Football seasons at amateur, regional level are almost never notable and I can't see this being an exception. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 10:33, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 10:33, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Poland-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 10:34, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 10:35, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Is well referenced and we shouldn’t be deleting an article when it is about an event which is about to take place. -Cupper52^Discuss! 10:54, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Please show me WP:THREE good references about this season. Please also show me the Wikipedia notability guideline that says articles about events currently taking place are exempt from meeting notability requirements Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 11:02, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - no evidence of any notability. Giant Snowman 11:55, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Fails WP:GNG, doesn't have any significant notability. Setreis (talk) 13:17, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - I am keeping this article up-to-date, with all information well provided. The results are published on global ([1]), national ([2]; [3]) and regional ([4] [5]) websites. In addition, it is the fourth level of the UEFA European league (for comparison: the fourth level of England has all clubs described [6]) and the club is described as a professional club ([7], "Only in that year, the commune supported the Football Joint Stock Company with the amount of PLN 580 thousand and the Zakładowy Klub Sportowy Stal Stalowa Wola with the amount of PLN 120 thousand"). It is a local giant for the Podkarpacie community. Therefore, after reading the WP:NSEASONS criteria and the provision that "national championship season at a lower collegiate level might be notable", I believe that in this case we are dealing with the article that should remain. Removing this page would bury many months of editors' work. 95.160.103.8 (talk) 14:42, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The coverage that you have cited as being significant national and international coverage is completely run-of-the-mill. There is nothing to suggest that they get any more significant coverage than any other club playing in a semi-pro or amateur regional league worldwide. The local coverage is perhaps slightly more detailed but it still does not come close to the level of passing WP:GNG. This does show some signficant coverage but it's entirely irrelevant to the 2020-21 season given the date in which it was written. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 15:05, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Well, according to my information, the club is professional, employing professional players. If it is otherwise, you should indicate it with an appropriate link. But I will make it easier for you - as this article states about the amounts: salary for players for 2020 (during the 2020-21 season) is PLN 1 044 452.38; salary of the coaching staff for 2020 is PLN 226,711.51; the management costs are PLN 187,987.47. 95.160.103.8 (talk) 15:51, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Have you got any sources to state that III liga is a fully professional league as that would be required? A professional club playing in a non-professional league is still not notable, see here. It isn't listed at WP:FPL but if sources are available then please start a discussion at WT:FPL. By the way, where does it say that the club is professional in that link? Semi-professional clubs still have wage bills as part-time footballers are still paid. Their wage bill has dropped massively in the last year. Are you sure that isn't because a lot of the new players are now part-time? Also, have you got any significant coverage for this exact season? None of the sources that you have provided so far show non-trivial coverage of this club during 2020-21 Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 16:02, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There are no clear guidelines (as WP:NSEASONS claims) if a particular season in a semi-professional level should be not notable or not. And that means that we must reach a conclusion in the discussion. As for the payments to the players, the article shows that there are no amateur contracts at the club (the highest is PLN 10,000; in my opinion, a solid contract even at the level of I liga; the lowest PLN 500 can be for a junior; details are missing). 95.160.103.8 (talk) 16:29, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that this season should be judged on its own merits. I will happily change my vote if multiple independent sources come to light showing detailed coverage of this particular season. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 17:13, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Well, if you are asking for Wikipedia:Independent sources, I will be happy to point them out to you. According to games - match reports can be easily found at the 90minut.pl website (official RSSSF branch in Poland); III liga match descrpitions, transfers and other infos associated with Stal can be found, among others, at the nationwide websites of Sportowe Fakty WP and Gol24PL; e.g player transfer; III liga victory, Stal 2021 training. Stal's Polish Cup games were described at nationwide medias like Przegląd Sportowy [8] or Polsat [9]. In addition, I can add regional independent source of "Echo Dnia Podkarpacia" [10] [11] 95.160.103.8 (talk) 19:10, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - on the basis of some reporting from independent sources that goes beyond just the bare minimum match reporting and transfer news, such as [12] [13] [14] [15] and a few others, I now believe that deletion is no longer necessary as the season article could be edited to show a passing of GNG. I have struck my nom. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 19:37, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete This still fails WP:NSEASONS, yes you can apply GNG, but I fail to see how sourcing to match reports and transfers isn't still run-of-the-mill routine. There needs to be more something special happening than what is there to make it notable. If anything I've noticed there are no club articles for clubs at this level when there could be. And creating a season page here seems to be going in the wrong direction. Govvy (talk) 12:39, 16 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Please read the WP:NSEASONS policy, which does not indicate if a particular season in a semi-professional level should be not notable or not. Please also see my exchange of views with the user Spiderone, who also had doubts about the encyclopaedic character of the article, but admitted that it meets Wikipedia requirements (independent sources, articles about individual matches, season in general, even training sessions in national media - all links above). 95.160.103.8 (talk) 19:35, 2 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Potentially some non routine coverage and no real discussion of those sources, worth another week to allow that to play out.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Fenix down (talk) 22:41, 22 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - I don't think run-of-the-mill match reports are really enough as this is well below professional level. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 21:27, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Please read the WP:NSEASONS policy, which does not indicate if a particular season in a semi-professional level should be not notable or not. Please also see my exchange of views with the user Spiderone, who also had doubts about the encyclopaedic character of the article, but admitted that it meets Wikipedia requirements (independent sources, articles about individual matches, season in genaral, even training sessions in national media - all links above). 95.160.103.8 (talk) 19:35, 2 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It does. WP:NSEASONS states that "articles can be created on individual seasons of teams in top professional leagues", which this is not. I would add that the references are insufficient for WP:GNG. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 20:55, 2 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Nooo, it just states that seasons in top professional leagues are always notable, and seasons in semi-pro leagues might be notable. As it comes to your opinion about references, the subject of cited informations are notable as cited in the nation-wide medias. I agree that for transfers I add mostly links from the team website (as it is the first source that provides the info), but there are as well cited in other medias; as please look for the last Stal transfer that I referenced with the other website. 95.160.103.8 (talk) 07:50, 3 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If the policy stated "articles can be created only on individual seasons of teams in top professional leagues", it would be EOT, but it is not, luckily. 95.160.103.8 (talk) 07:52, 3 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Fenix down (talk) 11:37, 2 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep this season has been covered enough by Polish media and while it could use a little more prose, passes WP:GNG. (This may not be true of every third division Polish team.) WP:NSEASONS is not exclusionary. SportingFlyer T·C 12:24, 4 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.