Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2013 Toulon Tournament squads

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus, even though I think the "delete" side had a much stronger argument when it came to lack of independent sourcing. There were a lot of assertions of notability on the "keep" side that lack evidence to back them up, also some of the arguments there are irrelevant (arguing that the tournament is notable is not equivalent to arguing that we should have the squad lists in separate articles.)

Still, with a clear majority opposed to deletion it would be a stretch to say that there is consensus here. Also, I cannot see a policy that mandates deletion outright (WP:N is a guideline) since the content here does appear to be verifiable, at least through the tournament's homepage. As such, the option of merging with the individual tournaments remains an alternative even though some have expressed reservations about the idea since they would take up a lot of space. Sjakkalle (Check!) 10:25, 1 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

2013 Toulon Tournament squads[edit]

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An important (but not the most important) youth soccer tournament: no objection to an article for every year of the tournament. But an article for the squads playing at the tournament in any given year seems like serious overkill. At first glance, this seems to be the only youth invitational tournament to get this treatment (Category:Association football tournament squads, some other articles in this cat or subcats probably need deletion as well). No evidence in any of the nominated articles that these squads have received significant attention as a separate subject in reliable, independent sources. Even the tournaments themselves are hardly sourced, but for these sources can be found with some effort. The squad articles though fail WP:N. Fram (talk) 09:52, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Also nominated are

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. Evano1van(எவனோ ஓருவன்) 10:34, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep (OF COURSE) Are serious? Or are kidding? Because you just can be kidding. EVERY article about an tournament needs an squad article. It's pretty important to know who is playing in that tournament and this is also for posterity. THIS IS FUNDAMENTAL.--SirEdimon (talk) 20:51, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

PS: I'm telling. The biggest problem in this encyclopedia is unfortunately the excess of bureaucrats. Rules are important, but this guys who want to DELETE ALL wikipedia are really unnecessary. They don't contibute anything with this encyclopedia. If they could, they would delete Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo articles. We have to be here discussing obvious things with these people. Trying to argument that the Earth is round.--SirEdimon (talk) 20:51, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have any argument based in policy? And no, of course we don't want to delete Messi cs, I don't even want to delete the articles on the individual Toulon tournaments. Fram (talk) 07:38, 24 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. • Gene93k (talk) 21:49, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

EVERY article about an tournament needs an squad article. It's pretty important to know who is playing in that tournament and this is also for posterity. THIS IS FUNDAMENTAL. I never ever seen somebody nominate a squad article for deletion before. Because when you have an tournament article, you have a squad article. They're attached. One is an integral and fundamental part of another one.--SirEdimon (talk) 15:32, 24 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - it has long been an unwritten rule at WP:FOOTBALL (and we are hoping to get them written down sooner rather than later!) that tournament squad lists like these are notable. Articles needs improving, not deleting. GiantSnowman 12:52, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Unwritten local rules can hardly trump things like WP:N. All tournaments? Or is this unwritten rule limited in some way? Would e.g. the Lahti Cup qualify? The 2012 Gabala Cup? Fram (talk) 13:27, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - I agree with the nominator, not every tournament should have its own article which lists the squads, and certainly not youth friendly tournaments. Mentoz86 (talk) 12:51, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That's not only a "youth friendly tournaments" as you said. That's is one of the most important youth tournaments in all the world. This squad-article is inherent to the main article.--SirEdimon (talk) 21:59, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Even if it is one of the most important youth tournaments in the world, I still believe it isn't important enough to warrant an independent squad-article. If you look at 2012 King's Cup, which is similar to the Toulon Tournament, the squads are listed in the parent article, why can't the same be done with these articles? Mentoz86 (talk) 08:51, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  - That's not the same. Not even close. 2012 King's Cup is a four-team tournament with almost unimportant teams (such as Denmark B and Thailand). Toulon is much more important. Seven (from 10) teams in this tournament will be in 2013 FIFA U-20 World Cup. At first I did not object to this kind of thing (a parent article), but I think Toulon is important enough to have a squad-article.--SirEdimon (talk) 19:37, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    - It is similar becauase it is a friendly invitational tournament, the difference is that the Toulon Tournament fields under-20 teams while the 2012 King's Cup fields two senior national teams, one B-team and one under-23 team. No-one in this discussion argues that the 2013 FIFA U-20 World Cup should have an squad-article, I just think the Toulon Tournament is below the bar where squad-articles are notable. Mentoz86 (talk) 08:17, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - The tournament is very notable, alot of players were scouted in Toulon, a squad list help to know who played in the tournament. Not all unofficial tournaments should have a squad list, but if there's one which should have is this. --Threeohsix (talk) 23:19, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Notable prestigious tournament, one of the top-level youth competition in summer. NickSt (talk) 19:16, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep If we put the squads in the main article we may risk a WP:UNDUE-problem.Jeff5102 (talk) 21:05, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: many keeps, but none of them offers any policy-based (or guideline-based) arguments. Fram (talk) 06:39, 31 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Merge each into that year's tournament page. Presently the squad and tourney pages have very little text and are just tables, I don't see why they couldn't be combined. J04n(talk page) 14:51, 31 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Merge into each year's tournament page, per J04n. Per WP:NFOOTY, "Youth players are not notable unless...they can be shown to meet the wider requirements of WP:GNG". Miniapolis 23:45, 31 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No policy-based reason to keep the pages nominated, and I don't believe that there is much that needs to be merged either. What exactly would be merged, as opposed to what straight deletion would accomplish? - Aaron Brenneman (talk) 09:52, 1 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.