Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Reguyla-Kumioko community ban

Add links
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Enforcement log

Instances of ban appeals to the Arbitration Committee, along with any instances of blocks, block evasion, and/or inappropriate appeals (such as to UTRS) should be logged in this section. Please specify the nature of the appeal/evasion, the date and time, the responding administrator, and any necessary context.

Discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Earlier today Kumioko was unblocked by Worm That Turned. This was done without consulting the blocking admin, Floquenbeam, or the community. These restrictions were placed upon him, one of which reads: "You may not comment on administrators as a group, nor on any sysop or desysop procedures." Kumioko's response can be read here. My query to WTT on blocking and his response can be read here. Upon reading this comment, made less than an hour ago, I blocked for one month. I see no change in Kumioko's behavior. Posted here for review. --NeilN talk to me 20:01, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Noting that I agree with the 1 month reblock and have declined the unblock request on those grounds. That said, I'd appreciate comments on the unblock - and also remind people that my recall process are certainly open on this matter. WormTT(talk) 20:07, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
As I stated on your talk page, I wish this had been brought to a noticeboard before the unblock. Yes, lots of drama would have ensued but we were going to get that anyways. --NeilN talk to me 20:14, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, what Neil said. A bold unblock, but really I don't quite see why this wasn't swung by the community first. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:22, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's a step in the right direction, but I'm stupefied as to why he was not indeffed. The thought of losing a wise and productive admin because of this makes me sick.- MrX 20:10, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Literally their first edit was a violation of the terms. Last time the community discussed this the standard was 6 months without being disruptive, an standard also not met. I think the block should be indefinite until the community agrees to their return, it was after all the community that banned this user and reviewed the ban in February giving clear terms. It is not for any one person to redefine terms set by the community, I think before this user is unblocked there needs to be a consensus to do so. HighInBC 20:11, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • (edit conflict) A month seems a bit long, given it is a very new and short leash, so obviously I would oppose extending it. A week would make more sense, but I would rather have seen discussion with him before a block. Normally, comments like his wouldn't even get a second glance, and it is only due to the restrictions in place, which of course are there to prevent. Worm unblocked him originally, I endorsed that, and I think some venting will take place but we have to give someone the chance to get back into participating. More than a day, anyway. But yes, I think a block was at least one option in this circumstance. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 20:12, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
As I said the above, he seems to be going off the deep end, so I guess this experiment in recovering banned editors is doomed. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 20:16, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
(multiple e-c's later, there were only two comments here when I started writing this) Knowing that other individuals have mentioned discussion at Meta which I don't know about, and, on that basis, may have more information than I do, I am less than sure that I agree with the length of the block knowing what I do know, as I think some degree of venting might be understandable under these circumstances. So I might myself have chosen a shorter time, but, again, acknowledge that there are discussions elsewhere which might be directly relevant in this matter. And there is no way in hell I would support any discussion of recall of Worm regarding this matter. John Carter (talk) 20:14, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict)Comments Unblocking admin should have known better that any return of this user should have gained an explicit approval from the community for all the disruption that Reguyla (and their previous incarnations) caused. To unblock on their own initiative, without consulting the blocking admin, and by devising their own exotic restrictions is well outside the admin discretion levels. If the unblocking admin does not realize their faults (including causing the blocking admin to resign their bits and depart the field of engagement with hostility) then I question the level of trust that the community holds them and their actions in. Second, the blocked user in question has in the past resorted to many actions that individually would have caused a lesser editor to have been blocked indefinitely (including "Fait Acomplis" changes, Personal Attacks, Disruptive Editing, and Sockpuppetry). I question at this time (in light of the short timeframe between being unblocked and the first violation of the unblock conditions) if we should go ahead and deliberate a Community Ban on this user. As I have personal issues in the past with this user, I do not feel it is appropriate for me to propose the CBAN. Hasteur (talk) 20:15, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • WTF? Again? Do you people like being trolled or what? Smh.... Dave Dial (talk) 20:15, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I support the block and would support increasing it to indef. The user immediately resumed the same toxic behaviour that got him banned. It was nauseating to read and it made me feel like quitting too, to be honest. To answer WormTT's question, I don't think the user should have been unblocked without consulting the community and the blocking admin (Floq.). -- Diannaa (talk) 20:27, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • ...You know, if WTT believed that the editor could contribute within the restrictions placed on their account, I have to trust that call. I would not have made it myself, but that's me. I am surprised that Kumioko is not indeffed, but that's also not my call. UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 20:29, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I have been trying not to be hard on Worm but I really do have to comment about the administrative policy. It says Administrators may disagree, but administrative actions should not be reversed without good cause, careful thought, and (if likely to be objected to), where the administrator is presently available, a brief discussion with the administrator whose action is challenged.
User:Worm That Turned I would like to know if you thought that this was unlikely to be objected too by Floq or if you have some other way of explaining how this action was in line it administrative policy. This comment[1] seems to indicate that you did not communicate about this because "he thought Reguyla's behaviour was a farce and straight indef". This seems to indicate that you knew it would be objected too.
I know this part of the admin policy is broken all of the time and is not held nearly as sacred as the rule against wheel warring, however I am sick of these cowboy unblocks. They always produce drama and I think we need to make it more clear that the administrative policy needs to be followed in this area. Frankly you offered something to Kumioko that you had no standing to fulfil and they are right to be annoyed at the outcome. HighInBC 20:33, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I would argue that a lot of careful thought went into the unblock - apparently there were discussions with Kumioko off-wiki (!), and the restrictions were crafted with the editor's consent and input, ideally so that they'd be something that could be complied with. The fact that they then violated those restrictions is evidence of lots of bad faith on the part of Kumioko, certainly. But I trust that WTT was acting in good faith. Of course Floq should have been consulted, or at least notified as a courtesy - and the failure to do so is the likely reason that Floq retired today and resigned the tools. That's a concern as well. UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 20:46, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I have said it before and I will say it again: When the community fails to keep abusive people off-wiki good people will leave. Good people will be correct to leave. HighInBC 20:49, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, you're absolutely not wrong. My name is in Kumioko's long and storied block history as well, and not on the unblock side. Does good faith on the unblocking admin's part mitigate a colossal fuckup like this? I dunno. I would expect this to go to arbcom, or at least to recall, before long. And then we lose two good admins over this... person. Distasteful. UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 20:55, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It would be my hope that this can be settled with some honest answers and be filed under the "lessons learned" category. I don't think we need to lose another admin and I hope Floq will return to the task. HighInBC 21:01, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I agree on all points, and my name isn't in Kumioko's "long and storied block history," but disparagingly referred to on his current user talk page as well. John Carter (talk) 21:00, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • If he was unblocked with restrictions and then turned around and violated those restrictions immediately then he should be immediately reblocked for the same duration as the block that was lifted. Not for a lesser amount of time, the same amount of time. Not to mention that WTT's unblock essentially removed a good admin due to Floq's retirement in disgust. I will say that had I still had the tools, I would have communicated with Floq first (likely via email in the event that on-wiki conversation was problematic) and then made my decision based on that. I would NOT unblock a known banned user whose MO is screeching "admin abuse" left right and centre without that conversation. VERY bad unblock, and the original indef needs to be reinstated as it's clear Kumioko has zero intention of actually abiding the restrictions. —Jeremy v^_^v Bori! 20:36, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is no way that Kumioko should have been unblocked unilaterally. It is a slap in the face to every single person who has been at the receiving end of their vandalism, personal attacks and disruption. If an unblock had been brought before the community I don't believe that there is any way it would have passed. In a December 2014 email I sent to Arbcom wherein I noted that Reguyla stated they planned on simply creating a new account if their block wasn't lifted I ended the email with "I have no idea why he's been provided so much leeway on this project at the expense of long-term valuable contributors, nor where his disproportionate sense of entitlement comes from". I stand by those comments. Reguyla continually expounded the belief that they were completely invaluable to the project and the block was a horrible disservice. Years have passed and it's apparent that they still believe this fallacy to be true, a one month block won't change that. I would definitely support an indef block. --Jezebel's Ponyobons mots 20:44, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Under the circumstances, particularly considering Reguyla has had his access to his user talk page removed, I would myself oppose discussion of an indef at this time, preferring that at least it wait until the editor in question can respond. John Carter (talk) 20:49, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • The blatant and immediate violation of the conditions of his unblock means that the original indef block should be reinstated, not a month-long block. As noted above by Ponyo, a one-month block won't magically make him compliant. —Jeremy v^_^v Bori! 20:53, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • The indefinite block was placed by the community and then reviewed by the community. Given the lack of community consensus for anything else, why do you think it should be finite? HighInBC 20:51, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • He was already indefinitely blocked. --NeilN talk to me 20:53, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support re-indef: Yeah coming off an indef and immediately breaking the terms of their "probation" should result in a reestablishment of the original block. --Stabila711 (talk) 20:56, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Indef - Here is the specific language of the unblock: "For the period of 1 year following the unblock [1] You may not comment on administrators as a group, nor on any sysop or desysop procedures. [2] You may not participate in any noticeboard listed in the general section of "Template:Noticeboard links" unless you are previously involved in or named as a party in a discussion that has been brought to the noticeboard. [3] Should you wish to take up an issue against any administrator, you must discuss the matter with Worm That Turned prior to doing so and get his agreement. [4] After the period of 1 year, these restrictions will expire. Should you break the restrictions, you will be blocked for a finite period of no less than 72 hours and no greater than 1 month. If the restrictions are breached 3 times, an indefinite block will be reinstated." Therefore, the one month block is appropriate, resumption of indef is not. If you have a problem with the unblock itself and want to eliminate two productive Administrators over this, you all know where ArbCom is. Your call, I don't care, and I seriously doubt that Dave and Dennis do either... They acted in good faith. Carrite (talk) 21:11, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • WP:Ignore all rules. Kumioko flagrantly disobeyed the unblock conditions immediately after being unblocked pursuant to the acceptance of those conditions. He should not be rewarded with a lesser block time for immediately violating them; if anything common sense dictates that the original indef block should be restored as he clearly has no intention of abiding by them. —Jeremy v^_^v Bori! 21:33, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • IAR says If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it. Please explain, in detail, exactly how giving Regula the sanction we promised that we would give him prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia. When an administrator gives a user a warning that contains the words "should you break the restrictions, you will be blocked for a finite period of no less than 72 hours and no greater than 1 month" it is fundamentally unfair to decide after the fact that the block should be greater than one month. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:37, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • But there was no "we". WTT had no authority or consensus to restrict what sanctions other admins or the community could take. --NeilN talk to me 17:46, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't think anyone should lose their bit over this. An experiment was tried and it didn't go so well. However it should be engraved somewhere that unblocking a well-known socker with behavior issues without having a community discussion first will always end badly. --NeilN talk to me 21:20, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Don't want to comment but I suppose I should. This had nothing to do with the fact that it was somehow "my" block, nor that I'm cranky that WTT didn't talk to me first; come on, you really think I'm that precious? Hell, sometimes I like "cowboy unblocks". But they have to be smart. There has to be some modicum of thought and research and cluefulness put into them. They shouldn't be made when you know for a fact that 6-7 different admins strongly disagree with the unblock. I'm stunned WTT didn't see this reblock coming; Reguyla has literally spent the last 2 years demonstrating what would happen if he was unblocked. My other problem with this unblock is that it shows a profound lack of respect for the (I'm guessing, but this is in the right ballpark) 3-4 dozen people who tried to help him over the years and were slapped in the face for their trouble, or who were subjected to his drama, taunting, socking, nasty comments on WO, and vandalism. Who (regardless of what Reguyla said off-wiki to WTT) have not been apologized to. It is inconceivable that there are people who think the solution is.... to give him a 45th "final" chance. This is not the Island of Misfit Toys. We should not be in the business of trying over and over to bring back known troublemakers completely incapable of editing collaboratively with others... who are so out of control that they got banned from Wikipediocracy! It's just mind-boggling. The third problem I have with it is the horrible message it just sent to all of the other similar editors out there (won't name them, I'm sure each of you can think of at least 3), who now realize the solution to things not going your way is to cause MAXIMUM DISRUPTION for months on end.
Cowboy unblocks in moderation are invaluable, I'd hate to see all of them tarnished with the same brush. And I don't want WTT desysopped or recalled, but I would like to see him agree to never again unblock someone who is blocked indefinitely without running it by some other admin first, ONWIKI. I'd also like to know from WTT if it is true that other admins knew this unblock was coming before it happened, based on off-wiki communication - not their names, just whether they exist or not. If they do exist then I'd like them to be honorable enough to identify themselves instead of letting WTT take the hit.
And for God's sake, I'd like to see Reguyla officially-no-fucking-doubt-about-it-community-banned so we don't have to do all this again in a month. Yes, he will never leave, ban or not. No, that doesn't mean we have to cave into his every whim. There are more of us than there are of him. RBI.
Now, goodbye. This was not some "ultimatum" that it's either him or me ("Ultimatum" is your word, Dave; a tacky assumption). You should ban him because he does significant damage to the project. I'm gone either way, at least for a long while, no matter what. This place leaves a bad taste in my mouth right now. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:27, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Re-indef per Floq and Ponyo. He should not be rewarded with a reduced block for years of abuse. This was a seriously bad unblock by WTT. BethNaught (talk) 21:39, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments. I am sufficiently "involved" with this unhappy situation, historically (not recently), that I will not opine on the best outcome here, but I will provide some background. Reguyla/Kumioko has indisputably made voluminous and valuable contributions to mainspace, particularly in his area of specialist knowledge or interest, which is U.S. Medal of Honor winners. Those contributions have been quite valuable to the project and its readers.

Also indisputably, for some time Reguyla/Kumioko has been enormously disaffected with the governance of the project, including the ArbCom and the administrator corps. In too many instances, he has crossed the line from legitimate criticism (which is itself a positive contribution), to name-calling (which is not generally a positive contribution), and into out-and-out disruption. More than once he has said he was walking away from the project but then changed his mind. Some of his grievances have at least arguable merit and some of them don't, but in expressing all of them, a sense of proportion has consistently been lacking.

Ultimately Reguyla/Kumioko wound up as the subject of a community ban and was asked to leave us. Following the ban, his level of admitted, intentional disruption and trolling reached the point of consuming tens if not hundreds of hours of administrator time. The disruption was intentionally designed to prevent large numbers of other editors from editing (by triggering rangeblocks)—to the point that in this post, I concluded that it might become necessary for the Wikimedia Foundation to obtain a civil court order in order to deal with him, a suggestion I did not make lightly. Fortunately, that sort of disruption stopped a couple of months later and has not resumed to the best of my knowledge.

When I was an arbitrator, I was often typecast (sometimes accurately, sometimes simplistically) as the most lenient member of the Committee and the one most open to allowing second (or further) chances. From that vantage point, I completely understand what Worm That Turned was trying to achieve here: regaining the benefit of mainspace contributions from a knowledgeable editor, unburdened by the more ridiculous baggage that has accompanied his participation in recent years. But it is also understandable that some of the administrators who bore the brunt of dealing with the editor's worst misbehavior, both on and off wiki, would not want to see him welcomed back, or would have wanted to see a collaborative discussion of the pros and cons of having him back, before his return.... Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:42, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It seems that by trying to cut the Gordian knot, I stabbed myself in the leg. I will answer any and all criticism in the morning. WormTT(talk) 22:07, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • As I said to WTT on his talk page, I suspect he has perhaps drunk a bit too much from the fountain of good faith in this case. I have no doubt that his actions were, indeed, in good faith, even if they were lacking in other ways. Perhaps for WTT the best way for the community to treat the situation is to bandage up his wounds and give him that patented "mother's look" while saying "this won't happen again, will it?"

    There has been mixed success when editors who have been badly behaved are permitted to return to the project; this shouldn't be a surprise, as there are often wounds on both sides that simply don't seem to heal. However, historically the returns that have been approved by the larger community seem to have a greater likelihood of success, while those solely by the Arbitration Committee without community discussion, or by individual administrators, seem much more prone to failure. While I can sympathize with the view that it is really difficult to get the community to agree to such returns, perhaps the lesson to take from that is that the returning user *needs* to work within the community, and by permitting the return, the community has a stake in trying to ensure that the returnee stays out of trouble. I won't be commenting below. Risker (talk) 02:08, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • I support the original unblock, and I applaud Worm and Dennis for trying to bring him back into the fold. I also support reblocking when he violated the terms of his return for the third time. Everyone seemed inclined to let him get away with that one initial blast, at admins in general and "trolls" who oppose his return, after which he said "That was limited to my initial reply. Now lets move on!" But it wasn't limited, and he didn't move on. The second violation was when he called John Carter's comments "utterly disingenuous trolling". The third violation was his characterization of everyone who didn't participate in his unblocking (and probably didn't know it was under discussion): "Everyone else wanted to act like children, stick their thumb in their mouth (or elsewhere), ignore emails, stomp their feet and give the silent treatment." By that time, Neil was absolutely right to block him; even Worm said he would have blocked him. Worm and Dennis went out on a limb to give him a chance; his response was in effect to kick them in the teeth; I don't see any reason to ever let him back. --MelanieN (talk) 01:43, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse the reblock; very clear violation of the unblock conditions.--Ymblanter (talk) 02:22, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse both WTT well-reasoned unblock, and the immediately reblock afterward, because the subject of these actions violated the terms of the unblock. Without prejudice to reinstatement after the reblock expires, and further without prejudice to an indef if the problem behavior just resumes.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  06:03, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Community ban for Reguyla/Kumioko

Since it's clear he has no desire to edit Wikipedia constructively, follow community norms, or abide by restrictions, I am hereby proposing a community ban for Reguyla/Kumioko. I would actually also go one step further here, if possible: This ban can only be contested by application to the Ban Appeals Subcommittee or Arbitration committee, and not more than once every twelve months. I'm not stupid enough to assume this will actually get rid of him - I note what Floq says above is generally true of most, if not all, banned editors - but it will prevent crap like this from happening in the future. —Jeremy v^_^v Bori! 21:40, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support as proposer. —Jeremy v^_^v Bori! 21:40, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Re-iterate support. With respect to WTT and Newyorkbrad, fiat justitia ruat caelum: Kumioko's actions have been intolerable. BethNaught (talk) 21:45, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - this user has committed every violation in the book and has been given many chances to reform already. There were numerous reincarnations of the user as well. Given that his recent actions and behavior have clearly outweighed any positive contributions he's made to the project, it's time for him to go. Enough is enough. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 21:50, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Re-iterate support from above. --Stabila711 (talk) 21:53, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support it clearly isn't worth expending additional effort to rehabilitate this editor per the above. Hut 8.5 21:56, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Frog and scorpion. Only in death does duty end (talk) 22:02, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support for all of the glaringly obvious reasons. I would also like to see some centralized effort to prevent IP sock hopping, including aggressively blocking proxies, reporting abuse to the ISPs that he uses, and an option to escalate to WMF for further action as mentioned by NewYorkBrad.- MrX 22:06, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks for picking up on my post, but to the best of my knowledge nothing that has happened in recent months would warrant that escalation—the types of outrageous disruption that led to my earlier comment have, as I said above, stopped (although the threat to sneak in and make mainspace contributions continues, which is a different issue). Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:21, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - At the end of the day he won't ever learn or change and to be honest I think he's worn everyones patience out here, Personally I think he should just move on from this place, Nothing against WTT but unblocking him was IMHO a complete waste of time. –Davey2010Talk 22:14, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support This person has a history of bad faith, failure to follow promises, and downright abuse towards our editors. When we fail to keep people like this away from the project good people leave and they are right to leave. Of course it can later be overturned by the community, but not any individual please. HighInBC 22:45, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support as a potential solution to a definite problem. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JzG (talk • contribs) 22:54, 5 October 2015‎
  • Support The WP:WIKILAWYERING that led to previous name changes and unblocks has always wound up with the resumption of the behavior in which the community is treated like dirt. The extraordinary number of socks and personal attacks that occurred in the past should have been enough to keep from any admin from unblocking without consulting the community first. A WP:BAN will ensure that wont happen in the future. MarnetteD|Talk 23:01, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • oppose without prejudice. I trust the judgement of WTT and NYB, if they saw there was a glimmer of hope we should not extinguish it. the early violation was minor but very poor form. I'm willing to let the month tick out, then see if the pattern continues. the leash should be very short considering past history, and I do not begrudge those who think it is already too long Gaijin42 (talk) 23:06, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I cannot speak for everyone but my opinion on this ban is not based on the reaction to recent unblock. It is based off a history of using sockpuppetry to intentionally get large ranges of IPs blocked so as to cause collateral damage as a form of extortion. It is based off of vicious personal attacks against numerous editors. It is based off their leaking of private information about admins and other respected users. This goes a lot deeper than the events of today. HighInBC 23:08, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I am aware of this history. I was personally implicated in one of his impersonation disruptions. My comment about WTT and NYB holding out a glimmer of hope was taking that into account. Gaijin42 (talk) 23:12, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. HighInBC 23:15, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support The first edit after unblock was to refer to those who have previously experienced the Kumioko/Reguyla time-sink as "trolls", and to reiterate his rejection of the original ban, and to repeat the same tired nonsense about double standards and fairness. Being fair to a drama-magnet leads to more drama. A new ban is required to prevent future abuse of the community by misguided admin unblocks. Johnuniq (talk) 23:11, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, but let's try to make our decision objectively, rather than as an emotional response in the heat of the moment. I'm not averse to an unblock one day, and Dave undoubtedly acted in what he felt was the best interest of the encyclopaedia by unblocking. The trouble is that Reguyla/Kumioko has caused a great deal of disruption and pain to this community. Part of the healing process is that the cause of the disruption and pain leaves the community for a while. Kumioko simply hasn't done that, and the damage he has done can't be repaired until he does. He has made useful edits and even insightful comments while socking, but these are vastly outweighed by the disruption he caused, and the deep personal resentment he has given many editors to feel through his conduct towards them and towards this community. That he would breach his unblocking conditions within hours of being unblocked, going back to attacking individuals and admins as a collective and all the other things that led to his ban, only confirms that it is too soon for him to come back (not, as I say, that he ever left in any meaningful sense)—too soon for him, and too soon for us. Kumioko needs to leave enwiki and its community alone for long enough for the wounds to heal. Then we can revisit allowing him back. @Reguyla: I strongly suggest you read this; and for what it's worth, I'm not one of those editors who feels personal resentment towards you, so if you have helpful suggestions or comments to make, you can email me or post on my Commons talk page. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 23:12, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    That is why I suggested BASC/ArbCom as a requirement to lift the ban. Kumioko's future should not be left to a single admin (given that this blew up in the community's face) nor to the community writ large (who won't be forgetting this incident or the efforts to blackmail us into letting him back); I would rather someone who can fairly assess his behaviour and his words do so. That way he gets a (relatively) unbiased way to appeal and the rest of the community doesn't have an opportunity to dogpile on and torque him off even more. —Jeremy v^_^v Bori! 23:21, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Perhaps there is another way to prevent dogpileing? All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 17:55, 6 October 2015 (UTC).[reply]
    Nothing that immediately comes to my mind. —Jeremy v^_^v Bori! 19:10, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose more or less as per Gaijin42. Worm and Dennis indicated that they saw some reason to hope here, and not knowing what they saw, I am obligated to trust the judgment of some admins I trust. And, at the very least, I would like to be able to see Reguyla participate in such a discussion as this, which right now he can't do. John Carter (talk) 23:14, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. This is too extreme. Everyking (talk) 23:19, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Not really. —Jeremy v^_^v Bori! 23:24, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support As I see things, this latest incident is the culmination of a five year campaign of disruption, personal attacks, harassment and industrial scale sockpuppetry. Yes, this person is capable of writing Featured articles, but they are clearly unwilling or incapable of doing so without creating monumental disruption and grief for others to have to deal with, without remorse, and with every likelihood that the disruption will resume instantly if they are allowed to return. Their determination to combat their "enemies" ignores the fact that they are their own worst enemy. ~·Cullen328 Let's discuss it
  • Oppose quite obviously. We've worked with reintegrating previously banned editors before, it is always a bumpy road, but the fact is, the initial ban WAS too quick, and if we are going to call ourselves a community, if we have the gall to say we treat everyone equal, we need to be a little more patient. Keep in mind, this current block was a violation, but it was still a small thing. Of course that is going to get him into vent mode. My personal thought is that he has a lot to contribute and it is easier to manage if he is here legitimately. This is why I supported the initial unblock. To ban or indef block him now for a small comment would simply be proving him right, that this is a kangaroo court at AN where anyone can be permanently banned simply for being unpopular. Everyone needs to just calm down, have a tea, and ask if what he has done since being unblocked is really indef worthy. To me, obviously not. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 23:39, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Dennis Brown Did you not think the unblock would be very controversial and if so, did you suggest bringing it to a noticeboard first? --NeilN talk to me 23:52, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Based on his reaction on his page, on this page, in email and everywhere else, I have to withdraw any support. Much about the initial block and ban two years ago was less than perfect, but it doesn't excuse his behavior once Worm was willing to give him a chance. I'm going back to my Wikibreak, which was interrupted by all this. I simply endorsed giving someone a second chance, for a variety of reasons. I didn't really sign on for all this drama. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 22:06, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is a bit more complicated than I can explain in a paragraph, but I've been talking to Kumioko since he was first banned, including trying to convince him to not sock. Keep in mind, Worm did the unblock, not me, so it wasn't my decision to make in this case. I was aware of it and supported it beforehand. There already has been previous community discussions if you go and follow the history, which is too complicated to explain here, again. As far as I can tell, Worm had full authority to unblock him as the community had agreed to lift the ban after a period of time. And of course I knew it would be controversial, but I've never strayed from supporting an action I think is worth the risk, even if it is unpopular. Right now, many people don't have the full story and I don't expect they will bother to find it out. I have no control over that. Of course, Reguyla shot himself in the foot as well, but I don't think all this "pitchforks and torches" is a shining example of community participation. That I'm in the minority is irrelevant in this. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 02:20, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Where is it written that we treat all users equally? I would say the we decidedly treat users who try to engage in extortion far from equal to an editor who does not. I normally have a lot of respect for your opinion but in this case I think your point is lacking. To suggest that we are banning him for a small comment seems to disregard the past behaviour of this user. The argument you have presented does not seem to address the issues at hand, we are not here asking for a ban because he mentioned admins when he was told not to mention admins. There is a very long history here and you know that. HighInBC 23:58, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • We already extracted our pint of blood for that. Unblocking was a way of starting over with restrictions. To drag behavior he has already "served time for" so quick after an unblock and a simple comment is saying that we will never forgive or forget. He clearly messed up as soon as he got back, but lets not fool ourselves, it doesn't seem that many were even willing to give it a chance. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 02:20, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • DB, please post a diff of a single comment about a) R or b) the unblock before his trolls comment. NE Ent 02:29, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry, but not going to play games Ent. Your arbitrary line in the sand is meaningless in a case that has spanned two years. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 02:39, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't consider engaging in sock puppetry and blaming everyone else for his ban "serving time". The unblock offered by the community was conditional and those conditions were not met. He was told 6 months without disruption and he could come back, he decided to use that time engaging in sock puppetry and personal attacks.
  • This user has not even gone half way to accept the generous offer by the community. There has been zero contrition from this user and I find it unrealistic to look at this situation and see user who has learned their lesson or in any way appeased the community for their abuse. The unblock was a lapse in judgement and it was a disservice to Reg. This is a mess Worm made and it is not something for the community to bear the brunt of. We should not have to endure yet another repetition of this user not doing what they agreed too because of a piss poor unblock.
  • It boggles my mind that the return of this user is even being considered while contributors like Betacommand are being blackballed from the community. My bright line in the sand is when a user gets really nasty and abusive, that is when I don't want them back. I find it insulting to anyone he abused that he was unblocked to begin with. It is damaging to the project to forgive and forget something that has every likelihood of happening again. HighInBC 05:06, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just noting that I've tried in the past to work Betacommand in a similar manner - just before his community ban. I hope there is a way back for him too. WormTT(talk) 07:55, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • You made an accusation: "it doesn't seem that many were even willing to give it a chance." I'm asking to back it up with evidence. NE Ent 11:46, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - A major sockmaster gets unblocked, blows his unblock terms in the first edit, and winds up here. Enough is enough. Jusdafax 23:54, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support It's not that he is "unpopular", no doubt he has friends, but it's his disruptive behavior that brings him to a ban - that's what a ban is to judge and his conduct as a User has been terrible for an extended time, whether he is personally popular or not. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:05, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: This editor has repeatedly expressed an adamant defiance to the consensus and the statutes of Wikipedia. Every post-block edit has been oppositional, with no indication of slowing down. DARTHBOTTO talk•cont 00:10, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • (edit conflict)Support That in the space of a few hours we've lost one admin with diamond level bona fides, that we're about to admonish another admin who has been well respected, and that we have many editors that have held advanced permissions all concur that this user is a lost cause should be indicative that no edits by this user under any guise will be able to outweigh the drama/agony/disruption that they have caused. As I referenced in the Block review this user has gone for Fait Acomplis actions, personal attacks, sockpuppetry, and more. I would prefer a indefinite ban to be only appealed through Ban Appeals Subcommittee with a public comment period so the subcommittee can get the views of the community at large since the community at large has been the main target of this user's disruption. Hasteur (talk) 00:15, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: Kumiko's very first edit after being unblocked is to violate the terms of the unblock in a particularly drama-mongering fashion? That's not the action of someone who intends to be a productive editor. --Carnildo (talk) 00:32, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - A very productive editor whose feelings were hurt by repeated rejection in the RFA process and who lashed out. I don't find his "violation" all that shocking. Give him a chance, a path back. Carrite (talk) 00:42, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. No amount of constructive work will be able to counteract the massive disruption and thousands of hours lost by others because of this guy. He is an extremist who will never stop trying to blow up Wikipedia to remake it in his own image. Bar the door. Binksternet (talk) 00:57, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. They've had far too many "final chances" and have never shown any sign of getting the point. I'd even support an actual "infinite" ban with no appeals permitted; Kumioko seems to be an incorrigible sort who will never be a net positive to the project again. rdfox 76 (talk) 01:18, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • (ec) Support. This user has perhaps been give more "second chances" that any other editor in Wikipedia's history, and has failed to live up to them every time. Given this, a re-instatement of the community ban of a few years ago is more than justified. BMK (talk) 01:19, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • While I'm commenting, the Kumioko drama is so toxic that I don't believe any admin should be sanctioned in any way over it, regardless of my opinions about who did the right thing and who did not (which I have, but will hold onto). In any case, a community ban is needed to put any future action beyond the reach of a single admin, as an indef block would not. BMK (talk) 01:23, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am of the opinion that WTT acted in good faith, and sanctioning him for this short of a strong reprimand is excessive; my assumption is that WTT didn't do his research into the whole Kumioko situation. —Jeremy v^_^v Bori! 03:15, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • If in the future anyone ever brings up 'They are already indeffed, we dont need a ban discussion, no one will unblock him!' .... I am pointing them right here citing 'the Kumioko effect'. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:22, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Considering the amount of community effort Reguyla has consumed ban discussion, ban review resulting in ineffable, bizzare "blocked but not banned," ANI discussion about talk page nonsense and, in the brief time since his unblock:
  • Support site ban. NE Ent 01:41, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support site ban - As per BMK, this user may have been given more second chances than any other editor in history, and until now there have always been a few sympathetic editors who let them Wikilaywer their way out. Enough is enough. Formal community site ban, with restrictions on appeal. This has gone on too long. There have been too many second chances. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:29, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support site ban. The fact that Dennis has to use the words "trying to convince him not to sock" pretty much encapsulates the mindset of a terminally disruptive editor who thinks nothing of violating and flouting policy. WTT has a very kind heart and in my observation has kindly given people second chances due to this kind nature. However, in this case it's clear that the community wants the site ban re-instated. Softlavender (talk) 02:53, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support site ban. My goodness what a time-sink this editor has been, and for such a long time. With regard to recent events, it's hard to argue with that NE Ent lays out a couple of posts above. It frequently surprises me just how often Wikipedia tries to give "one more chance" to editors who make so little effort to understand how they come across to others. WTT, you are kind, and you did not mean it this way, but (and from what I can tell you are able to handle some direct feedback) this is quite disrespectful to fellow admins who have dealt with these problems, and to the community in general. Paul Erik (talk)(contribs) 03:14, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support site ban. It is clear that Kumioko cannot control himself. Obviously we're very different people but if I was in his shoes and got an unblock after all the disruption I've caused, I would shut up and edit productively for a couple weeks before testing the boundaries of my restrictions. The fact that he immediately went back to his old ways shows he hasn't changed enough or at all (as does his message below). As a rather unpleasant side-effect, based on his comments, I find my faith in Dennis Brown's judgement in these kinds of matters significantly reduced. Your fellow editors are not a kangaroo court and "you don't have the full story but it's too complicated to explain" is not helpful. --NeilN talk to me 03:26, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Everyone seems to be familiar with the background of this drama except me, but the upside of being out of this particular loop is that I can look at this matter dispassionately. One thing I look for in gauging unblock requests is an awareness on the part of an editor that their previous behavior was inappropriate. They don't have to ask for forgiveness, they don't even have to be sorry, but they have to demonstrate that they are aware it was not okay, and I do not see that here. Gamaliel (talk) 04:14, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • We should not try to dictate people's opinions or extract confessions. We can "agree to disagree" and move on, as long as an editor is willing to refrain from behavior that the community has deemed troublesome. Everyking (talk) 07:49, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • I have no interest in extracting confessions or dictating their opinions. They can think what they did is perfectly fine, as long as they demonstrate they are aware that they did was unacceptable. This demands even less than your stated willingness to refrain, so it's hardly akin to extracting a confession. Gamaliel (talk) 14:12, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • The latest statement posted by GW shows exactly why this user should be blocked, as it basically boils down to "Floquenbeam is a quitter and I'm not" and "those who !votes support are just the same group who are out to get me". I have no idea who this person is so at least in my case this is factually inaccurate. I don't care if this user is contrite, but they don't seem to have the slightest understanding why other editors would object to socking or harassment, nor do they even seem to acknowledge that they did any of these things. As Jéské Couriano writes below, it's all "me me me". This is not the kind of editor who is capable of engaging in productive collaborative editing with others. Gamaliel (talk) 16:21, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. per Dennis Brown. Begoon talk 04:45, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Thoughts: I just re-read WP:STANDARDOFFER, and as far as I can tell none of the conditions seem to have been met, and none of the public procedures (e.g. "open[ing] a thread at an administrative noticeboard (WP:AN or WP:ANI)") seem to have been followed. I don't know if they needed to be met and followed; I can't tell whether the original indef was Floq's judgment call (in which case we simply have a case of the unblocker overturning another admin's action, albeit without discussion with that admin [Whether or not discussion was warranted, with Floq or the community, I don't know.]), or whether the original indef was a community consensus (in which case SO should have been followed to the letter). Softlavender (talk) 05:23, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose:Dennis summarises my thoughts well But Vehemently Oppose the BASC only return. Kumioko needs a community return option. WormTT(talk) 07:52, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I heavily doubt the community is going to forget the holding-anons-hostage-via-IP-hopping, the constant sockpuppetry and block evasion, the imprecations towards admins to the point of single-issue wonkery, the constant relitigation of past wrongs anywhere where he can speak, or the fact he immediately violated the terms of unblock that you offered him. I suggested BASC or ArbCom only because I strongly doubt that the community writ large would give him a fair shake, especially after the events that transpired yesterday. —Jeremy v^_^v Bori! 09:24, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, I like to think I'm a patient type, but they barely lasted twelve hours this time. Either WTT has gotten trolled, or Reguyla is seriously incapable of working with others; and neither indicates that any positive contribution they might make will outweigh the disruption that they cause. Lankiveil (speak to me) 10:10, 6 October 2015 (UTC).[reply]
  • Sigh personally I have never had a problem with Kumioko and would not mind him editing here at all, however I am aware of the huge drain that the ongoing battlefield has been and folks that have been upset, so fully understand folks' exasperation too. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:56, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Enough is enough is enough. Nsk92 (talk) 10:59, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - clearly here to be disruptive. GiantSnowman 11:23, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - As an observer of Kumioko/Reguyla's conduct since the big community ban review discussion a year and a bit ago, I can see no option here but indefinitely banning him. There is no point saying "come back in a month". Twice now over 12+ months the community has extended an olive branch after repeated assurances of regret and future good behaviour, both times things ended in tears. It's one thing to assume the best of people and that they can change - it's quite another to ignore repeated evidence to the contrary. The Land (talk) 11:43, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Enough is enough is more than enough, after a nearly 4 year campaign of disruption, personal attacks, harassment, serial sockpuppetry, vandalism and extortion. For the record, I find the minimizing rhetoric used by both Worm That Turned and Dennis Brown to describe Kumioko/Reguyla's behaviour and their attempt to sanitize what he actually got up to be quite distasteful. Even more distasteful, is their description of the original ban discussion as a "kangaroo court" allegedly closed after "a couple of hours", when in fact it was closed after 48 hours and had quite a thoughtful participation of both admins and ordinary editors. Ditto Dennis Brown's clear implication that those supporting a ban now are simply a mob of "pitchforks and torches". Voceditenore (talk) 12:43, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak oppose. Based on behavior, past and present, I fully understand why this is being proposed. The original ban was imposed fully in accordance with policy with wide input from the community, and was not the result of "kangaroo court" proceedings. With that said, the disruption at this particular iteration was brief, and has already resulted in a fairly severe sanction of a one-month block without talkpage access. That should already send a clear signal that the community is serious about enforcing the restriction. The community's skepticism of letting Reguyla back in is fully justified, but I am uncomfortable with the unbanning process requiring acts of contrition, confession, apologies etc. The advantage of keeping the blocks finite is that upon expiry, the user is readmitted to the community without fuss and with more dignity. Any sockpuppetry during the next month should result in the ban being reinstated. Sjakkalle (Check!) 13:42, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I didn't think he should have been unblocked to begin with considering the massive disruption he has caused. That being said, he was, but then he immediately violated the very very very light restrictions put upon him as part of the unblock. He needs to be shown the door with an indef ban at this point. It is ridiculous. -DJSasso (talk) 14:01, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Their first comments immediately on being unblocked show that they are no closer to understanding why they have ended up in this position. Until they learn a minimum of self-control I see no hope for their successful return. SuperMarioMan ( talk ) 14:35, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I know my opinion here is in the minority, but the restrictions and conditions WTT laid out all this user a fair second chance. I'm one to always AGF and see the good in people, and I'm also not fully aware of Kumioko's background, but I've only had positive interactions with him. I believe people are capable of change, be it takes 1 try, 2 tries, or 4 tries. Using myself as a model, I was an ecstatic, frustrating, stubborn as a mule user who took flak from a community to get to change. I got myself indefinitely blocked which required a BASC appeal, and look at me now. I almost passed an RfA, and narrowly missed by a hair. So again, people can change, and I'm glad the community gave me the chances to change. I think with these restrictions, this will allow Kumioko to redeem himself. And if he can't stay unblocked, and manages to get himself blocked 2 more times, it automatically becomes an indefinite that will likely have no chance of being lifted anytime soon.—cyberpowerChat:Online 15:44, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per my comments above. This isn't a matter of a single editor causing limited disruption, it's an editor who made it their purpose to disrupt the entire project through a campaign of targetted harassment and (in Newyorkbrad's words) "his level of admitted, intentional disruption and trolling reached the point of consuming tens if not hundreds of hours of administrator time." This is an individual who continues to prove themselves incapable of the type of collaboration required to edit on this project. I don't see how anyone who knew that full extent of Kumioko's actions and the lengths they went to in order to maximize the disruption caused could oppose the ban.--Jezebel's Ponyobons mots 16:00, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Kumioko has not been here for any reason other than to harass and abuse various editors for years. As stupid as the attempted unblock was, it did demonstrate - in a matter of hours - just how unsuited for participation in this project this editor is. Resolute 16:56, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Wikipedians need to look forward and work collegialy, not shout "burn the witch" at every opportunity. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 17:32, 6 October 2015 (UTC).[reply]
  • Support WTT's decision to unblock, support 1-month reblock, strongly oppose indef. When an administrator gives a user a warning that contains the words "should you break the restrictions, you will be blocked for a finite period of no less than 72 hours and no greater than 1 month" it is fundamentally unfair to decide after the fact that the block should be greater than one month. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:57, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The fact that he turned right around after the unblock and violated the terms of it justifies it. If your first edit after being unblocked pursuant to certain conditions was to immediately violate said conditions, you should expect for the original block to be reinstated. The assumption of good faith is not a suicide pact. —Jeremy v^_^v Bori! 19:00, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Worm does not get to decide on maximum block lengths, it is beyond me why he tried. HighInBC 20:10, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    You could say the same about any warning posted by any administrator. You may not agree with it, but setting the terms of the restriction was an administrator action, and unless you can persuade WTT to allow a longer block or show that somehow his setting restrictions as a condition for unblocking was against policy, changing the block to longer than one month would be a clear case of wheel warring. Let the block expire in a month. If there are no further violations by Reguyla, we are done. If there are, you can post to ANI and in all likelihood there will be a strong consensus for an indef block. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:49, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    That is not how things work. Making up conditions for an unblock is not an admin act(unblocking is though) and no admin can put limits on how much a block can be made by another. Wheel warring happens when there is a back and forth, reversing another admins action is not automatically wheel warring. HighInBC 22:24, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I read the discussion that occurred on his talk page and I came away with the view that if so many editors hadn't jumped into the discussion, he may have quietly reentered the community. He has been a productive editor in the past and I think it would be beneficial to the project to be a bit more tolerant and less rigid in enforcing policy. --I am One of Many (talk) 18:00, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Look, I was the one who blocked him in the first place back in 2012, and he's been banging his head into the wall and shouting "Hey look at me" ever since. But no, I can't community ban someone for what is essentially one comment. Now, if he's been socking during his block or his ban, then show me that and I'll support a ban. But this? It's pitchforks. He was told that he gets a month if he screws up, he screwed up, so give him his month. UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 18:08, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • He self admits to socking a lot during his block/ban. That really has never been in question. -DJSasso (talk) 18:50, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, so true, and I see Doc's link below as well. Put me under Support then. Thanks. UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 13:07, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support ban. Dennis asks above "if what he has done since being unblocked is really indef worthy". No, not in itself, but his whole conduct over the last few years is, and what he has done since being unblocked shows that, whatever he promised to WTT, Kumioko has not in fact changed his spots. This is the person who wrote: "I will be the most prolific vandal, troll and sockmaster in Wikipedia history." (posted on WO; quoted, with much else, here). That was not a momentary "vent" but a serious declaration of intent, which he pursued relentlessly, including deliberately damaging the encyclopedia; three months later he wrote: "Even today, I made about 200 contributions, mostly vandalism and fictitious page moves and most haven't been undone."[2].
Dennis says "We already extracted our pint of blood for that" but that does not mean we should forget it in assessing whether Kumioko is likely to be a net positive if allowed back, and how he is likely to behave the next time he does not get his way. If he is to be welcome here he has to put all that behind him. WTT hoped, against all the evidence, that he could; what he has done since unblock shows that he cannot.
My advice for Kumioko would be to stay right away from en:wp for a year. No block evasion, even for constructive edits. No unblock requests. Don't even read the drama boards. By all means contribute at other sites, but do not use Commons or Meta for endless recitals of your en:wp grievances. Forget them, forget en:wp, do other things, get a life. In a year, things will be in better perspective: if you are then ready to put all this behind you, and you still want to contribute, ask again. JohnCD (talk) 18:34, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support There has been too much disruption from him in multiple avenues. Kumioko's recent behavior shows that he hasn't changed and doesn't appear to be willing to change. This temperament doesn't fit well in a community that requires civility and cooperation. Mike V • Talk 18:48, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Enough is enough. Not that I think this will actually result in keeping him off the wiki - until the WMF adds better blocking tools, that's almost a hopeless case. With that said, I hope that Kumioko will choose to stay away; it's certainly better for all involved. Obsessions are good for no one. -Philippe (talk) 22:08, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. This freaking guy again. Should have never been unblocked/unbanned. Doc talk 02:41, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Exactly. I don't want to re-open old wounds, but it was a bad decision then, and it was a bad decision now. It is not true that everyone is redeemable, or it may simply be that because we are here to build an encyclopedia, we don't have the excessive amount of time and effort it would take to redeem him, especially when he refuses to meet us even part-way. BMK (talk) 04:52, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • That would be here. When you're making angry "Why doesn't this exist?!?" denunciations, it helps if you get the name right. ‑ iridescent 06:53, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ah, yes, I see. My bad! What a gallery of socks (that we know of). We shouldn't ban him. Let's give him a present! Doc talk 07:02, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • OPPOSE - I've meditated on this !vote a bit longer than I would normally have; for I have supported Kumioko, at times in the past, to then witness a regrettable decline of conduct by him. Many are suggesting his conduct after the current unblock is but another example, but I don't see it this way. I think the calls to welcome Kumioko back into the community by site banning him are based in hyperbole, and frankly: I am not nearly as narcissistic as those who suggest Kumioko's presence can so drastically effect our ability to function as editors. He certainly is not a "known liability" – that's fear mongering pure and true, and I'm just not buying it.--John Cline (talk) 11:15, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, being banned from Wikipedia isn't the best experience in life. However, how one conducts oneself while being blocked or banned is a sign of whether or not one is ready to return to Wikipedia. Reguyla's past threats of socking & coming through on those threats, warrants a full year ban. If he can show restraint & stay entirely away from Wikipedia, the entire time his block/ban runs? then I'll support his return. PS: Note that I served a 1-year ban & so have a unique PoV on this matter. GoodDay (talk) 13:15, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per BMK. Every damned time this name comes up the biggest can of worms erupts. It's time to close the can once and for all. Losing a veteran admin and forcing the community to admonish another one of the most respected ones is, in my book, basically spitting in the face of the community. Quite frankly, this is a case of an editor who is never ever going to be worth unblocking regardless of their past contributions. Blackmane (talk) 15:29, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support (including proviso that the ban can only be contested by application to the BASC or ArbCom). I appreciate that those in favour of extending a further olive branch mean well, but please can we stop wasting time on giving fourth/fifth/sixth etc chances to perennially problematic users? WJBscribe (talk) 11:04, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Wikipedia is not therapy and it is not a support group. Competence and the ability to collaborate in at least a semi-professional manner is necessary and important, and being prolific is not a substitute for being able to work cooperatively with human beings. Kumioko/Reguyla has proven that he does not have that ability and the project should recognize that simple fact, take the appropriate and permanent step of removing him from this environment, and move on. Nathan T 17:00, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support siteban. Kumioko is not Rootology (talk · contribs). He is not (insert any of several "difficult" content producers). Rootology was site banned, then was unblocked and became a huge benefit. During his ban, he didn't sock, he didn't rail against every admin and every editor who disagreed with him, and he actually changed the behavior which caused his banning. The same can be said of all of the active editors who have been mentioned by others in this thread; they don't turn into centipedes when blocked, and they don't beg for unblocks, then immediately violate the terms of the unblock with their very first edit. Kumioko is an enormous time sink, and while I won't be grabbing my pitchfork and torch to head up to the Frankenstein castle Worm hole, I think that the unblock was a very bad idea. I respect most of the editors who oppose the siteban, but I don't see Kumioko as likely to become a net positive to the project. Horologium (talk) 22:30, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Opppose Indefs against constructive editors because they've gotten pissed off and done something unconstructive is pointless, itself unconstrutive, and just serves to turn would-be-editors-again into vociferous WP-is-a-cesspool enemies, for no good reason. See alt. proposal below.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  05:59, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I find it unrealistic to think that anger or being "pissed off" has anything to do with their actions. The vandalism, extortion, and abuse occurred over a period of years. Do you think he was pissed off for years? If they are pissed off for years that is not a good sign. More realistically their actions are more based in their personality than a transient emotional state. HighInBC 14:48, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I'm not sure whether I'm involved here, as I vaguely remember interacting - as an admin - with Kumioko over some unpleasantness or other - but in any case the deplorable record of this editor, as explained e.g. by Newyorkbrad above, calls for a community ban as a matter of course. We must get rid of antisocial editors as fast as possible, no matter what their merits as content creators may be. That's because such editors disrupt the editing environment for many other people who are just as good contributors but who do not have such character flaws.  Sandstein  08:58, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support; This thread is proof enough that conduct like this is nothing more than a time-sink on the community, something that we don't need. Kharkiv07 (T) 14:12, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support ban. I get it that he has done some good content work and some good vandal fighting. But when I weigh that against the huge time-sink that he has created, I'm seeing a net negative. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:53, 10 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Alternate proposal: Postpone action until the block is lifted

I propose that Reguyla/Kumioko's existing one month ban remain in place, and that a discussion regarding the terms which would be imposed for him to allow to return to active editing take place shortly thereafter, after a broad-based community discussion. This return might reasonably involve some degree of Arbitration Committee involvement in the final outcome and in the process of determining such terms, as per the discussion above.

  • Support as proposer. I have Kumioko possibly longer than many others here, and while I acknowledge his lack of self-awareness and extremely unfortunate tendency toward self-dramatization are offputting at best, and such that many might reasonably find them insufferable, that he has been a productive editor in the past and that the unfairness he perceives, rightly or wrongly, in the existing sanctions might well be itself a significant factor in the degree to which the above problems have been manifest.
    Also, frankly, it is extremely hard for me to imagine many, if any, individuals who would see the community taking a slightly lenient position in this particular case as being an indicator of how they can personally terrorize, for lack of a better word, the community into getting a block or ban lifted. Any individual who has seen the remarkable degree of what some might call obsession Reguyla/Kumioko has displayed regarding his sanctions will, I think, realize that there are damn few people in the world who would be willing to go to such remarkable extremes to get such a sanction overturned. I know that there would be no way I would, under any circumstances. That being the case, I cannot see this proposal as being a "blueprint" for more than the smallest handful of others to get similar restrictions on them lifted, because, honestly, few if any other people would display the remarkable single-mindedness Reguyla/Kumioko has displayed in this regard. It is certainly possible that in his particular case there has been a degree of injustice in his own treatment which few if any others would encounter or perceive. If that is the case here, and I acknowledge that I think it could be, it might, maybe, be in the best interests of the community to examine how it may have been less than fair, and do what it can to correct that. Also, honestly, if unacceptable conduct continues thereafter from Reguyla or others, such that Reguyla is banned again, I cannot see how anyone would think that the community itself, which will by that time have bent over to a possibly unprecedented degree to try to address previous concerns, could have any degree of responsibility for the circumstances leading to that theoretical final sanction. John Carter (talk) 17:23, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Seriously? No. There's absolutely no reason to wait a month to take action. If you want such an unblock discussion to take place, have it in a year. --NeilN talk to me 17:29, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: You know I would have supported this if Reguyla just kept his mouth shut and let the community discuss. However, his responses below show a serious lack of acknowledgement and a serious persecution complex. This level of obsession is not a good thing and the level of discontent the community has shown with his behavior is enough to show that any attempt to bring him back into the fold is likely to fail. Especially at this stage. Waiting a month is not going to change that. I doubt waiting a year will change anything but that is to be seen. He failed to abide by the restrictions set by WTT and he failed in less than 24 hours. How can anybody stand to trust this user to abide by any restrictions? Enough is enough. --Stabila711 (talk) 17:32, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Absolutely not. BMK (talk) 17:41, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'Oppose. Regrettably no reason to believe that this would end any differently to the most recent unblock. If he can stay out of trouble for a year (which on past conduct seems unlikely given that he has a long pattern of evading bans and abusing people off-wiki) then maybe we should consider unbanning him. The Land (talk) 17:50, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose We do not ever reward users who disrupt wikipedia by giving them what they want. Postponing only defers the implementation of the community's will in which there is a snowball's chance in hell that the User who has been blocked will reform in the 1 month of block time (considering that they've been in various states of restriction for 2 years) and that there already was a reasonable consensus to not let this user come back to begin with. If I had any glimmer of hope that Kumioko could respect the terms of the block (which they've repeatedly demonstrated no interest in respecting via evasion/massive IP sock hopping/using backchannels to get his "truth" out/etc) I'd be willing to hold the CBAN in abayance but the proxied in statements are absolute non-starters no matter how you slice it. Recovering from a block/ban requires the user to understand how their actions put them in that state. Hasteur (talk) 17:58, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose No... as those above have said. You don't reward bad behaviour. He has had plenty of chances to reform and has blown them all. -DJSasso (talk) 18:41, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, especially since the first several edits after the unblock were blatant violations of the terms of his unblock. Usually in a case like that you reinstate the block. —Jeremy v^_^v Bori! 19:02, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose We already tried giving him terms for return, twice(at least). He failed to honour those terms both times. I don't think the community wants him back. I think unblocking a person who has repeated said they will harm Wikipedia until they are unblocked is begging for other blocked users to engage in extortion. The extortion is a deal breaker, he has basically made it so we cannot welcome him back or we are capitulating to extortion. The argument that others will not do this because they are not as determined as Reg fails the laugh test. HighInBC 20:21, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - A permanent ban from every Wikimedia website is overdue. Community patience, extended repeatedly, is exhausted. This is a sober judgement from concerned editors, not a mob action, as a few are attempting to characterize it. Jusdafax 21:14, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. (NOTE: OPPOSING THIS DOES NOT EQUAL SUPPORTING AN INDEF BAN.)
Some here clearly do not agree with it, but WTT setting the terms of the restriction was an administrator action, and unless you can persuade WTT to allow a longer block or show that somehow his setting restrictions as a condition for unblocking was against policy, changing the block to longer than one month would be a clear case of wheel warring. Once the 1-month block expires You have to wait until Reguyla violates a restriction or a policy before you can block him again. If Reguyla keeps his nose clean from now on, then certain people will simply have to slake their thirst for blood somewhere else. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:05, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You're wrong. No admin action is set in stone and every action is reviewable and changeable by community consensus. --NeilN talk to me 23:34, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Update: I have been in contact with Reg elsewhere, in a place readily visible I don't want to reveal because I myself have my own love of melodramatic tendencies and silly little secrets, which, given my user name, among other things, is probably kind of obvious to everybody anyway. That conversation is, more or less, in relation to putting together content elsewhere in the WMF relating to topics of interest to him, like military biographies, and then having the material there used to develop missing and poor articles here. Speaking strictly for myself, I would like to maybe have it possible, if work of that type is done, to make it possible for him to receive the "credit" for an edit here. I think one thing that might be useful, and which might be overlooked in a forum such as this one, but not be at ArbCom or elsewhere, a limited activity unblock to develop the poorly developed or missing content here which can be imported from wikisource or elsewhere. Unfortunately, I don't think myself that at this time, whatever the merits or lack of merits of such an idea, that it being introduced at this rather late date will necessarily have much effect on those who have already expressed opinions. Having said that, however, I am going to @Worm That Turned: and @Dennis Brown: for information on whether their contact with him indicated Reguyla had a specific limited field of primary interest, and, if it did, whether it might be worth perhaps allowing if nothing else a "work release" form of ban lift to develop some of the content related to that specific field of interest. John Carter (talk) 23:29, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
John: Your comment above could easily be construed as conniving with a blocked (soon to be re-banned) editor to circumvent his block/ban. My advice is to think very carefully about what you're doing. Worm That Turned is one of the best admins we have here, but that didn't protect him when he tried to help Kumioko (inadvisably, I believe), it just put him in the middle of a "shitstorm" of criticism, a lot of it unwarranted, but some of it justified. That is the last thing you would want, I would think, but Kumioko is like a black hole, sucking in good intentions and giving nothing back. I seriously suggest that you not pursue this scheme. Kumioko is, honestly, not worth it, his value to the project before he went off the deep end has been consistently overstated, as you woyuld see if you investigated some of his vaunted 500K edits. BMK (talk) 07:59, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per my support above - I've lost track at the amount of chances he's had & blown here!, Not even sure if it's worth posting here ... –Davey2010Talk 01:50, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • The discussion is at wikisource:User talk:John Carter, which I thought would have been obvious given the nature of my own comment below suggesting that he do as much. On that page, I have suggested that he develop content related to the matter of medal of honor winners, which seems to be his primary focus of interest, there, and then, as the content there is develped allow him the limited right, almost certainly under some restrictions beyond that topic, so that his edits for an at this point indefinite time are limited to that content. I have also removed the material which had previously collapsed this section, based in part on the rather strange and to my eyes clearly out-of-process premature collapse of this subthread. We have already had individuals below state that the thread will be reviewed in roughly four or five days at this point, and I cannot see any reason to preemptively judge any proposal in advance, particularly considering the lack of any full consideration of the proposal being offered to this date. Again, under the circumstances, I thought it would have been obvious that was where the discussion was taking place, and my apologies for having apparently been mistaken there. John Carter (talk) 14:42, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • You have gotten your response John. People don't agree with your proposal. You say you have not gotten full consideration, I say that you got it but you just don't like the answer. The closure discussion is about the proposal above, this proposal came later and I don't see anyone suggesting it run a full week. HighInBC 15:35, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Although I clearly thank you for so clearly both misrepresenting my earlier statement, in which I said four or five days, not a week, and for making it clear that you did not read Callanecc's comment to the effect that it would be closed on the 12th, which is in four or five days, I also feel obliged to point out that your conduct in this thread has already been found to be at times at best counterproductive, but that hasn't apparently had any impact on your conduct. Also, honestly, I have not gotten a full response yet, as the only response which has been made since I posted a link to the relevant discussion elsewhere, so your statement is also one which some might not unreasonably call dishonest. A reasonable attempt to deal with all concerns would actually involve directly dealing with them, rather than jumping to conclusions, and, honestly, I haven't seen any direct response yet. John Carter (talk) 15:42, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes John you told me on your talk page and my talk page that you don't think much of my behaviour. No need to tell me in a third place. You may note I have invited you to discuss my behaviour on my talk page, this is not the place. As for the topic at hand, 11 people responded to you. Perhaps you have not gotten the response you wanted, but you got a response. HighInBC 15:48, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • @HighInBC: Regarding your insistence that you apparently have an absolute right to use this page to discuss my behavior while at the same time insisting that I cannot discuss yours, particularly considering in one of the hatted sections below it is clear that I am not the first one to question your conduct here, may I perhaps suggest you read WP:HYPOCRISY. John Carter (talk) 16:07, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • If Reguyla can do useful work at Wikisource, that's splendid, but I think a "limited unblock" here on en:wp is a seriously bad idea. That is what WTT just tried; why do you think it would go any better next time? JohnCD (talk) 15:53, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • You have no idea how grateful I am to see that someone has actually read what I said. Thank you. To my thinking, the only limitation to the block would be to pages particularly relevant to the contnet he develops elsewhere, either at wikisource or wikia, where the content here is clearly of a lesser quality than that elsewhere. If there were any sort of way to do something along the lines of a protected edit request or something along those lines, that would be the extent of the lift of the limit that I would be considering. Or maybe calling it a single-topic unban might be another way of saying it. To my eyes, again, the limitations would be at least in the beginning extremely limiting, to specifically and obviously related articles here. I acknowledge, not being an admin, I don't know how many such have been done, but I think it might be workable and that it might be possible for ArbCom perhaps with community input to devise a specific way it could be done which might give him a way to at least to a limited degree show here that he can be a good editor, and, maybe, to help him concentrate on what he is good at, content development in that area. John Carter (talk) 16:07, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I read the link. It did not change anything, it is the same thing just in a different place. You keep insisting that the link was not read by anyone. I read it and I see Reg complaining that everything is someone else's fault. I see you expressing regret in their behaviour and pointing out issues with how they have handled themselves, I see you criticizing that he boasts about policy violations. You keep acting like we are opposing this because we are not informed. Which part of that conversation is supposed to make me reconsider your proposal? HighInBC 16:11, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Where did you get the impression that your individual response is, as your comment above seems to at least strongly indicate, the one and only thing that anyone could be seeking here? I thought this site was directed by group consensus, and your comment above seems to at least imply that, in your eyes, your individual response is the only thing that might matter here. John Carter (talk) 16:15, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • No idea where you got that idea from. If you look very carefully you will see there is a clear consensus here to reject this proposal, a consensus that you reverted the closure of twice. I am asking you why this link to the conversation should in any way change our minds, it seems to only re-enforce the consensus reached here. HighInBC 16:17, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support this alt. proposal as the obviously proper way to go about this, due to the fragmentary and oft-contradictory way in which this editors' issues have been approached. The new block is long enough for him to rethink, and I think it's very clear that a renewal of the "admins are vermin"-style ranting will result in an immediate indef without further discussion or reconsideration.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  06:08, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The argument that he was "a productive editor in the past" might have held weight if we did not have years of harassment and attacks in the interim. Frankly John, it is time for you to accept that the editor you knew a half decade ago is gone and not coming back. And it is time for you to accept that the only thing your proposal offers the community is more unnecessary and pointless drama. Resolute 14:34, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose There is no need to enable the bad behavior again and again. MarnetteD|Talk 14:40, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. What MarnetteD said, plus adding there is no reason to waste the community's time even more than it has already been wasted. Softlavender (talk) 14:45, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose While I laud John Carter's efforts, my reading of Kumioko/Reguyla's comments at the wikisource page shows that nothing has changed. While I've not interacted with Kumioko, I've paid attention to the the train wreck that is his descent into the hole that he has dug for themselves. John summed up K's lack of humility quite nicely. Every time I've read anything about Kumioko, I have never ever seen them take responsibility for anything that they've made happen. Everything is someone elses's fault. I don't see anything changing sufficiently in the next month any more than it has changed over the last couple of years, since they were originally blocked, to the point that letting K back in would result in a positive collaborative atmosphere. While there are a number of editors who are viewed as troublesome and interactions with them occasionally boil over, at no time have they deliberately set out to damage the encyclopedia or threatened to. Blackmane (talk) 02:35, 10 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. More than enough of the community's time has been spent on this over the last four years. There is no reason whatsoever to think that in one month's time, anything will have changed. One simply has to read Reguyla's comments here, on his talk page and at wikisource:User talk:John Carter to see that. He was offered a change to a six month's block after his first ban on the proviso that he cease causing disruption and cease socking for those 6 months. He did neither and yet blames everyone but himself. He violated the conditions for his latest unblock with his very first edit and kept at it. Ditto. It is time to stop enabling this behaviour. Voceditenore (talk) 17:41, 11 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't close too early

In the past Kumioko has complained perhaps rightly that the ban discussion was rushed. The banning policy calls for at least 24 hours discussion, I think we can do at least 48 hours so that we can lay to rest the idea that the community came to the wrong decision because we rushed. Ideally it can be closed by an admin who has no prior involvement in this case if there are any. This is a user who looks for any excuse to invalidate the legitimacy of their ban so lets not give him any. HighInBC 23:02, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. One of the reasons I blocked for thirty days and not indef is because I didn't want to perpetually hear, "I was blocked indef only because NeilN doesn't like me." Goes without saying but I'm fine with whatever the community decides after a proper discussion. --NeilN talk to me 23:08, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate your restraint. Not sure I would have had such foresight in your shoes. HighInBC 23:10, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The thing is, looking at Reguyla's block log, there was every single indication that any conditions laid out for him would be ignored, and a HUGE part of his MO is complaining that the admin corps hates him. He would have complained about the block no matter who levied it, even if it was for 24 hours, and he would have defied his terms of unblock. The assumption of good faith is not a suicide pact, and we have long reached the point where Kumioko should be barred from participation permanently. —Jeremy v^_^v Bori! 23:29, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that no matter what it is likely they will cry foul. However even in the ban discussion above long term contributors are expressing concern that the original ban was rushed. I want that concern to be put to rest. HighInBC 23:59, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that it is wise to let the discussion continue for 48 hours or more, so that no one can say that it was rushed through. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 23:35, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I imagine this discussion is going to get quite convoluted so it might be worth having closers worked out. From memory I've been uninvolved (apart from a few clerk comments at SPI and a clerical block here) with Kumioko/Reguyla so I'm happy to close this in a couple days. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 00:02, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not that I'm even being considered here, but as someone who has had positive interactions with Kumioko, I will have to recuse here as I am clearly biased.—cyberpowerChat:Online 00:22, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • If the above comment from @Callanecc: is indicating he thinks this thread might benefit from multiple closers, maybe it might make sense to have a separate section below where those who wish to take part in the closing can indicate as much? John Carter (talk) 01:22, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • Not necessarily that it needs multiple closers (but not a bad idea if the community wants it), just that there was a need for someone to put their hand up early on. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 01:25, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse - please, leave this open at least a week. If a ban is the outcome, it must not be rushed. WormTT(talk) 07:17, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

We did 48 hours the first time: Original ban discussion: Filing: [3] 22:16, 25 February 2014 Closing: [4] 22:28, 27 February 2014 Elapsed time: 2 days, 12 minutes. NE Ent 11:43, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Endorse leaving open for a week. In Kumioko's mind, his continual socking and block-evasion were justified because all his various blocks and bans (except last August's ban review) were too hasty or otherwise invalid. Let us leave no possible scope for doubt or complaint over the result of this. Multiple closers would be desirable for the same reason. JohnCD (talk) 13:48, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I personally have no objection to keeping this open for a week, or whatever, but I don't think it will make a whit of difference. Kumioko's reaction is going to be what it's going to be, whether it's closed in 48 hours or a month. Once again, we need to disabuse ourselves of the notion that his responses are rational ones; his behavior for years has shown that not to be the case. BMK (talk) 23:18, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also, we're talking about the "48 hour ban discussion" as if it came out of nowhere, but that was not the case. There had been a number of previous noticeboard discussion in which there was considerably support for indeffing or banning Kumioko, but these discussions were closed with no consensus. Thus there's history behind the "48 hour" discussion, it did not appear ex nihilo, and because of that it was not an unreasonable amount of time to reach a consensus. BMK (talk) 23:28, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse, he will doubtlessly sulk and complain no matter what we do, however we shouldn't go out of our way to give him fuel. No good reason to rush this or act rashly. Lankiveil (speak to me) 11:02, 7 October 2015 (UTC).[reply]
  • Unfortunately, like a self-oxiding pryotechnic, it doesn't really matter whether we "provide fuel," or not. The behavior to date is quintessential WP:NOTTHEM NE Ent 03:29, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

My first thought was this is a good idea; but I really don't think it is, as it gives credence to the canard the first ban discussion was somehow improper or hasty. NE Ent 03:29, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Endorse: Sufficient discussion and consideration won't kill anyone. "Sulking and complaining" is completely normal behaviour to expect from people who feel (rightly or not) that they've been run though a hostile gauntlet and have not been listened to. If he starts up again with anti-admin ranting, well, so be it, indef without further big discussions of it. Reguyla: If you're let back, just please STFU about how sore you are about it and any further finger pointing. Go write a Facebook rant about it instead or something. WP itself is not the venue for it, no, not even on your talk page.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  06:14, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion's been open 5 days and there has been no new opinion expressed on the main proposal for 24+hours, probably a sign that the conversation is mature and it's safe to close now. The Land (talk) 20:58, 10 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. I suggested it be closed after no sooner than 48 hours. I get why people proposed a week but at this point it is getting stale, few new comments are coming in and even Reg has said it can be closed. It is of course something for the closers to decide. HighInBC 21:17, 10 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Talk page messages left for Callaneecc, KTC, and Katie. NE Ent 21:39, 10 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Closers

Probably worth creating a section for this. I imagine we'll only need one to three closers, with the thread to be closed around 20:01, 12 October 2015 (UTC). So who would like to join me (assuming the community is happy for me to do it, see disclosure above)? Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 00:30, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see why there need to be more than one closer. But if you want, give me a ping when the time comes. -- KTC (talk) 00:53, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Me too, if you like. KrakatoaKatie 05:49, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I've emailed them both my thoughts on closing so we should have this closed in a day or two. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 23:38, 10 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Responsibility

This is not hard.

  • Reguyla is responsible for what Reguyla did, no one else.
  • Floq is responsible for / entitled to his decision to take a break; the choice is his, and in his own words I'm not a child.
  • WTT is only responsible for his actions, no one else's. Did I personally agree with the unblock? No. Was it a violation of policy? No. The community imposed a ban; the community later removed the ban, making Reguyla eligible for an unblock if any admin thought it was not longer necessary to stop disruption. We tolerate good faith mistakes because if we don't, there will be no one left to write the encyclopedia. NE Ent 01:51, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    ^This. Without commenting on whether Reguyla should be banned or not. It's not WTT's fault floquenbeam (talk · contribs) left.—cyberpowerChat:Limited Access 02:06, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Not to mention, WTT clearly acted in good faith. At best, he should be reprimanded, but I doubt at this point that's even necessary or desirable. My hope is that he takes a lesson away from this: Always do the research on editors who are seeking unblock. —Jeremy v^_^v Bori! 03:32, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    That's how I saw it Ent. I'm responsible here, not for violating policy but for believing that Kumioko could come back and be a decent editor. You know what, I still do. WormTT(talk) 08:04, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry, WTT, I respect you immensely, but you really have to disabuse yourself of that notion, Dennis (another admin I admire) too. Whatever happened to Kumioko to put him over the edge -- and I don't believe for a minute that two failed RfAs were the chief factor, there's got to be something else going on -- is not going to be solved by his getting access to Wikipedia. If anything, his obsession with Wikipedia is simply part of the problem, but we're not here to solve people's personal problems. BMK (talk) 16:49, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    There is no absolute reason Kumioko cannot return to constructive editing. It's apparent that he will have to work alongside people who have behaved in reprehensible ways in the past, as well as people who he believes have done so. This is not going to be easy. Conversely, for a number of those people the same applies.
These difficulties are not insurmountable. Happy to discuss them here or elsewhere.
All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 18:03, 6 October 2015 (UTC).[reply]
Yours is clearly, by a very wide margin, a minority opinion, and is not supported by the evidence. BMK (talk) 21:21, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Kumioko has contributed constructively in the past. He has contributed to other open knowledge projects. He claims (and we have no reason to doubt) that he has articles ready to go.
Therefore the evidence is that he has the ability and desire to contribute to en:WP.
All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 22:01, 6 October 2015 (UTC).[reply]
Claims are not evidence. His long-ago behavior has been completely usurped by his long, long reign of misbehavior since then. He has shown absolutely zero ability to edit constructively in years. His desire to contribute was so lacking that when he was unblocked he immediately acted out again, subverting his own chances. That's the relevant evidence here, not what he did with semi-automated editing tools years ago. BMK (talk) 22:17, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Statement from Reguyla

Reguyla asked on IRC to be unbanned for the purposes of participating in this discussion. I did not agree to unblock, but I do think he should be allowed the opportunity for a response. GorillaWarfare (talk) 02:38, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I just wanted to post a statement but given the length of this discussion its going to be a bit long, sorry. I also am disappointed that again the community is having a ban discussion and refuses to let me participate in it to defend myself or argue in my own defense.

I cannot believe that we are having a ban discussion the same day as I was unblocked over a minor comment. I also cannot believe I got a month block for a comment that shouldn't have gotten more than a week at most. So about that comment first, WTT unblocked me and left the statement he left. I didn't agree with all of it and wanted to comment to clarify it. I fully intended it to be a one time statement and I was moving on. I was able to do a few edits, but much of my time today was simply responding to comments about my unblock.

With regard to the hyperbole about how horribly disruptive I am. Yes I over rected to my ban. A small group of people kept resubmitting ban requests till they got what they wanted. I have apologized for that several times in several ways. In August of last year the community had a ban review discussion and voted to unblock me in February 2015. Several people who did not agree with my unban created a disruption on my talk page, blocked me and then started a discussion at AN that I was not allowed to comment on. They extended my block to May and then again to August. Then Floquenbeam indef blocked my account, so the indef was not from the community as a couple has stated It was from Floquenbeam who clearly stated that my unban was a clear farce anyway. I have ignored the last three extensions since because they were invalid. There is no reason for three people who opposed my unban to be allowed to start a new discussion to change the outcome. So I have ignored the block extensions first and continue to abide by the community unban decision.

For more than the last year ALL of my edits and contributions have been positive. I have reverted vandalism, created articles and tagged articles for WikiProjects. So arguments that I am not here to participate or am being disruptive, at least for the last year, are hogwash. In fact, several people have taken it upon themselves to create a disruption in my name if any account is thought to be me by deleting the articles created, restoring the vandalism I reverted and reverting the edits. This damages the project and causes a disruption for no reason when there is no policy or reason to do it other than to create drama. The only thing I did wrong was not use my Reguyla account, which should have been unblocked last February.

So Worm that turned and I talked and he agreed to unblock me with restrictions that I did not agree with but was forced to concede to because no admins were willing to follow the last community unban decision.

Several people commented that I am not a positive participant in the project, well how can I be if you won't let me edit. The site admins refuse to follow the community decision so I follow the community decision through Ignore all Rules. "If a rule hinders improvement of the project, then ignore it".

So, if the community is unwilling to follow the community decision to unban me but allow some to keep insisting a new ban discussion is needed to keep me banned, why should I follow it? I am trying to contribute positively but if all you do is find reasons to block you will keep finding them.

Do not unblock. Enough is enough.--Ymblanter (talk) 02:59, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Ymblanter:

I agree Ymblanter, enough is enough. Its time to follow the community unban discussion that was decided last year. Its time to stop having ban discussions for no reason like this one. Its time to stop manipulating policy to keep me blocked for no reason. The community already unblocked me last year and ever since I have been following the spirit of that unban. I can't do anything not having an admin willing to perform the action and I cannot do anything about the lack of respect for the community or its decision that teh admins conttinue to ignore. I can however control participating in a positive way in the spirit of the community unban decision. You don't have to unblock me and you can even revert my edits, but does reverting and deleting positive edits out of spite really benefit the project or our readers? Does it really help the project to make drama just for the sake of it just because I think all editors, admin and regular edit should be treated equally? Does that opinion really make me that much of a threat? My opinion is no.

GorillaWarfare (talk) 03:20, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Stay away from Wikipedia for a full year. By showing restraint & faithfully serving your ban, you could get reinstated. GoodDay (talk) 03:25, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I notice a lot of "me me me" in Reguyla's communiqués. Where's the "we", "us", etc.? I'm sorry, but, Reguyla, you're coming across as a man on a mission from God. You may have been - may still be - a productive editor when left to content. But, to put it very bluntly, you're displaying some horrible narcissism here. You clearly don't give a toss about the whole "crowd" aspect of "crowdsourced" and scream that you're being repressed when criticised. The whole reason we're even debating a community ban yet again is because you're more interested in relitigating battles lost as opposed to editing encyclopædia content. —Jeremy v^_^v Bori! 03:28, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I do not think it is a good idea to post here all comments of a blocked user thereby letting him to evade the block. They were blocked and the talk page access was revoked for a good reason.--Ymblanter (talk) 04:29, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think he should be given opportunity to respond, especially given that this discussion will probably only be open for another day or two. I've asked him to please keep the responses minimal. GorillaWarfare (talk) 05:22, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think Reg should be able to have his say during this discussion. I personally want as little excuse to complain about the result as possible. HighInBC 05:27, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
He has been given too many opportunities to respond, which, in fact, led to his immediate block earlier today. And by posting all his comments here, I am sorry to say, you are acting as his sockpuppet. From my part, I am going to ignore his comments while he is blocked, even if he directly addresses me.--Ymblanter (talk) 05:32, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reguyla's whole argument is nonsensical in my view, because all blocks have been by the books, and he knows exactly how to request unblocks, but instead of effectively requesting unblocking, he flagrantly sockpuppets instead, because he believes himself to be above the law. This is sheer lunacy and a blatant flouting of policy. Stop referring to a community discussion and so-called decision that occurred over a year ago. Deal with the reality of current time, and current actions. Softlavender (talk) 08:50, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

NE Ent Thanks for showing those links to those statements in my comments NE Ent. Would you mind providing links now for everyone showing the personal attacks towards me by Floquenbeam? Or his frequent tendency to tell others to Fuck off? Like the one where he told me to Fuck off maybe! Or the dozen or so others in the last year. Or maybe you could provide everyone a link to the Arbcom discussion that advocating someone sending a letter to my employer, outing me in an attempt to get me fired. Does everyone know about that incident and what level the Arbcom is willing to go? I bet not. So yes I made my share of mistakes, but yur narrow and one sided argument completely ignored all of the abuse I endured that caused me to become so angry and frustrated with the project and the admins in it. Not to mention the ongoing namecalling and abuse currently going on in this discussion that I cannot even respond to myself to ensure it stays one sided against me.

NeilN Neil, As soon as you saw I was unblocked you started running around the project looking for a way to block me. I saw you pop up in at least 3 places asking if you could block me before you finally did after getting the approval from WormThatTurned. That is exactly the sort of hounding I am talking about. There are enough policies and rules in Wikipedia if you want to block someone its easy to find a way. You went looking for a reason to block me and found one.

GoodDay - I know you faithfully served out your year ban and now feel anyone who is banned must do the same. We were banned for very different reasons though so its realy not the same.

Jéské Couriano - Please stop twisting my words. Editing Wikipedia is a collaboration and I have stated that all along. Its not a me thing it is and always has been an us thing. The fact that you don't know what I was even banned for shows me that you don't have all the facts. The comments are mecentric because I am the one you are trying to ban, again, eventhough I have effectively been banned all along since no admins are willing to perform the unblock that the community decided last year. This whole ban discussion is nothing more than another instance of I didn't like the last decision so I am going to change it.

Stabila711 Your right, no one in this project is irreplacable. Not me and not Floquenbeam or anyone else. I had over 500, 000 edits and many artices created and featured content. No one cares. I am just an editor. Floquenbeam blocked many, many people and drove many others away with his over zealous personality and insistence he was always right. He is an admin and a hero. In the end, many editors and admins have left and the project continues although, I would argue it gets weaker and continues to decline as everyone can see. I did not cause Floquenbeam to leave, Floquenbeam chose to leave. I was forced out and am fighting to get back in, thats the difference between us, good or bad. I am not a quiter even if some here want me to be.

For the most part, all the people who are supporting my ban are the same ones that Supported it the last tie, and the time before that and the time before that. Several have mentioned second, thirdm etc chances, but I have not had any chances. I have been continuously blocked for more than 2 years because people that do not want me to edit continue to manipulte the outcome. Even if I did not make a comment and get blocked we would still be here now. Someone would have drug me back to AN with some justification that I should be banned. Its time to move on folks, its time to stop making all this drama and let me edit again. I was a high output editor and will be again if you let me and drop the torches and pitchforks. I'm not perfect, but there is no need to continue to create ban discussions of minor comments that aren't even worthy of a block. Is this really what the ENWP project has come too? Do you really not hae anything better to do than to blame editors for disruption when there is none and I mean literally zero disruption. In fact, to those that said I caused a disruption, please show me in the last year where an edit I did was an actual disruption to the project. I would love to see some links of what you think is a "disrupton" and I am sure others will as well.

Now I know I can be an asset to this project if everyone drops the sticks and gives me a chance but its a hell of a lot harder if I am banned and that doesn't improve the project. I have literally about 70 articles ready to be loaded, mostly Medal of Honor recipients,Some ships, some generals and other bios and a lot more to offer in cleanup. I am not coming empty handed here. But it doesn't do me much good to create these articles on ENWP just so a couple of admins who don't care about the project to delete them and claim disruption.

GorillaWarfare (talk) 16:06, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Well thats informative. I certainly advocate contacting a abusers employer when they perform abuse from their workplace. In fact I did it regularly when I was a network administrator. I contacted employers, schools, parents, their ISP's... Oddly enough contacting their mother's usually got the quickest solution to problems. While I dont advocate telling trolls to fuck off as an optimum response (it only feeds them) its certainly not a big deal. When you provoke someone and get a reaction, to then bitch about the reaction as it is somehow their fault is beyond a joke. And at this point, I think the community repeatedly banning a troll is a giant 'fuck off' even if it doesnt use those words directly. Perhaps he should just take the hint. And in related news, why does he still have access to IRC? Who is in control there that he is still allowed access? Only in death does duty end (talk) 16:16, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Same martyr complex. I asked WTT once as a courtesy to them why I should not block you. [5] I didn't need their permission or approval. Even then, I did not block you until you continued on. This is like a teenager complaining about being grounded for lighting up a cigarette in front of his parents right after he was told he'd be grounded if he smoked again. "You were looking for an excuse to ground me!" --NeilN talk to me 16:24, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You're just not getting it, Reguyla. Stay away from the Wikipedia for the length of time the community demands. If you had taken my advice before & walked away for 6-months, the situation would've been better for you now. Sock-puppeting, emails aren't exceptions. GoodDay (talk) 16:15, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Kumioko, I wouldn't have cared enough to start the ban discussion if it weren't for the fact that you essentially backstabbed WTT by completely disregarding the terms he unblocked you under. And WTT made those terms the way they did for a reason: You have a very hard time letting go of (perceived or actual) wrongs committed against you in the past, to the point where you're coming across as a parody of who you used to be. What happened to the content creator quietly creating content? Did he get slain and replaced by the bickering, my-way-or-the-highway doppelganger when we weren't looking? —Jeremy v^_^v Bori! 19:16, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • @GorillaWarfare: I wish you wouldn't post here on the user’s behalf, effectively circumventing their block and WTT’s removal of talk page and email access. You could consider reenabling them if you’d like the user to participate in this discussion. - NQ-Alt (talk) 17:51, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I disagree: (a) we should not give him the chance to complain that he was condemned without a chance to defend himself, and (b) his responses are quite illuminating and may help to form our decision. JohnCD (talk) 16:00, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think John has it right. If we deny him a voice he will add it to his list of "unfair" things that has happened to him. Letting him speak only allows a more informed decision from the community. NW-Alt's should take into account that it is normal procedure to post comments by blocked users in threads discussing them and we also even unblock users to participate in such discussions. GorillaWarfare is not doing anything wrong by posting the messages here. HighInBC 16:02, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have to agree that this comment from Reguyla is anything but a positive development. In it, he seems to be demonstrably incapable of recognizing that WP:CONSENSUS takes priority over his personal whims and desires. There is no way anyone would see repeated statements of that type, and this is by no means the first one from him, without having questions whether this person is perhaps in some way impaired. I have never been in the military, although, as someone who grew up near a major air base, I know that anyone who displayed such disregard for authority and remarkable self-righteousness would have a better than even chance of being basically personally disowned by his wing and/or squadron. However highly any individual may hold himself, boasting "I am breaking every rule in the book but doing it in a good way, so I deserve thanks and praise," will basically come across as, well, delusional. If he honestly wishes others to believe there is any real chance that he could ever show any regard for policies and guidelines when they disagree with his own personal goals and intentions, the time to do so is now. And, unfortunately, the above comment really doesn't in any way come anywhere near doing so. John Carter (talk) 18:23, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Now I know I can be an asset to this project if everyone drops the sticks and gives me a chance but its a hell of a lot harder if I am banned and that doesn't improve the project" Yep, I know, and I would have been willing to support that, but "Floquenbeam blocked many, many people and drove many others away with his over zealous personality and insistence he was always right. He is an admin and a hero." See, that's where you're wrong. Floq was one of the admins who always gave people a chance to improve. You've let your hatred of the "admin" culture (very clear in your rantings after you were unblocked) spill over into plain false statements about a named person. I couldn't give a shit about people telling me I'm a useless admin (we get that all the time), but regardless of whether Floq goes or stays, you've caused your own downfall here. I would have given you a chance, but not now. Sorry. Black Kite (talk) 19:31, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Doc9871 Doc, if you are going to make statements, please at least make them factual.

Comments like calling me a vandal and a liability are not needed nor factual. I am being banned in this discussion for statements far less than this. If I am as bad as people are claiming then facts should be enough.

All of the things you state are over a year ago, second I have never been a vandal and third I am not a liability. If there is a disruption here, its because its being created by others, I wasn't unblocked long enough to create a disruption and although making a comment on my talk page might be annoying to some people, its far from a disruption to the project, unlike this long discussion that was started without even giving me a chance to get back to editing. People have stated I had multiple chances, but I have never been given a chance. I have been blocked continuously for 2 years and no one. Not one of you has given me a chance to get back to editing until Worm unblocked me.

Maybe if people stopped lying about me like you and others have done here Doc, in order to justify an unneeded ban, then I would have had a chance at getting back into editing. There are new users voting to support my ban here that don't even know who I am nor have they interacted with me and haven't been here long enough to even know what they are supporting. They are just following the mob. But its clear from statements like yours that people are going to say and do anything just to keep me from editing. Sure I have used socks to edit, and I lost my bearing when I was people manipulated a ban on me but for over a year I have contributed positively (although yes though other accounts). Clearly its now commonplace to have a full ban discussion over a comment on my my own talk page, but its still an extremely weak justification for a ban and far from being a disruption as people claim...just like when I was banned over making a comment the first time, 2 years ago, and a couple people tried resubmitted over and over to get me banned until they got what they wanted.

GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:02, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Today: "...second I have never been a vandal..."
June 15th, 2014: "Even today, I made about 200 contributions, mostly vandalism and fictitious page moves and most haven't been undone..."
Why does anyone believe what this person says or promises? --NeilN talk to me 19:45, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, NeilN - that was the exact diff I was looking for. And I'm the liar according to this character. Doc talk 20:01, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Request to @GorillaWarfare: I really don't think it's necessary to re-post Kumioko's comments anymore. They're not advancing the discussion, and, in fact, they're doing him no good at all that I can see. Can I suggest that he's had his say, and that we've extended to him more than sufficient courtesy, considering his long history of vandalism, socking and disruption? BMK (talk) 21:26, 7 October 2015 (UTC) [reply]

NeilN First I want to state that link you provide was over a year ago and before the community unban review. I don't expect you to believe me but I wanted it on record that I have never vandalized the project to my knowledge outside of the talk page comments (that could be argued as vandalism by some I admit) and have done nothing but positive contributions since around July of last year. Please provide links to prove otherwise. Particularly after August of 2014 when the community ban review that was ignored by the admins decided I should be unblocked in February. What I see in this discussion is a lot of people who want my head regardless of the reason. I gave them a reason with the comment, but they would have found one anyway. A lot of the people are voting support with comments like "This guy again". They don't know why, just that its my name. This AN discussion is full of hyperbolic statements and accusations and lies. Multiple people see that and some don't. You cannot prove I did any vandalism because I didn't regardless of what I said in anger. You cannot prove a disruption so you created one with this discussion, because that comment was many things but it was very, very far from being the enormous disruption that this discussion has become.

So yes I said made that statement last year that you link too and I said a lot of other things in anger back then but I never did any vandalism other than some talk page comments that although not vandalism were certainly unnecessary and unkind. Disruptive even. I agree there was a point after my ban that I became disruptive because I was hurt, frustrated and felt completely betrayed by the project and the community I had dedicated so much time too. I have apologized for it many times, to many people and in many different venues. At one time Godzilla was a little bity lizard and Darth Vader was a child, things change over time and so have I. I lost my respect for the community and the project back then and lost my composure. For that I am sorry. I should have just said fuck it and walked away from the project like so many other editors and admins have done. But I didn't, I went off the rails and damaged my reputation and my history of contributions on the project. I can't change what I did, I can only move forward, if the community will allow me too. I would ask if there is some path to get back into editing but I know there isn't. Just like I told Worm months ago that this unblock request was doomed to failure, but we agreed it was worth a try. He and Dennis put their reputations on the line with this unblock and I let them down with that comment that I felt was minor and didn't think that anyone would really give a shit about one comment on my talk page that anyone could ignore. I was wrong. Clearly the community is not ready for that yet so it doesn't matter what I want or what they want. If this small group of community members want me out of the project and that seems evident in this discussion then fine. There are plenty of other projects to devote my time too even though this one is the project I am most passionate about.

If you want to blame someone for this mess then blame me. Worm and Dennis didn't do anything and neither did GorillaWarfare by posting my responses. So if you have issue with me, then blame me, not them. You are free to close this discussion at any time. It is evident that there is no desire within this community for me to participate here so there is no need to continue this AN discussion just to ensure I cannot complain about the process. The process is fine, the consensus is that my ban is to continue indefinitely as it has been for the last 2 years.

GorillaWarfare (talk) 22:53, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Beyond My Ken: I generally agree that his statements aren't particularly helping his case, but I do believe it is important that the subject of a potential ban have some say in a ban discussion. That said, since he's willing for the discussion to be closed, I don't plan to post any more. GorillaWarfare (talk) 22:55, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

OK, thanks for considering my request. BMK (talk) 22:57, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) It seemed like a perfectly reasonable approach to take. It's not like Reguyla used it as an excuse to post a bunch of "go **** all your mothers!" disruptive rants. He made his case, people didn't buy it, and he rather maturely (more so that most here would have given him credit for) accepted the result. I see no harm in that. Anyone who thinks it's just too much drama and "enabling" to let someone defend themselves on a forum that exists for discussion and resolution of editor behavior problems maybe needs a break from the noticeboards. I mean, they do exist, after all, for people to raise concerns and for those about whom concerns have been raised to rebut, and for the community to consider the differing views fairly. Last I looked, anyway.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  23:21, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
While I'm posting, might as well throw my 2 cents in: I don't think Reguyla is unredeemable. He clearly just feels railroaded and entrapped. He's also clearly a bit on the intemperate side, but plenty of other editors are too, just better at wikipoliticking. That said, his first post to his own talk page immediately upon being un-banned (or un-blocked, or whatever it is – the confusion in this regard is a good example of WP:NOT#BUREACRACY failing to be adhered to), on the condition (among others) that he refrain from anti-admin aspersion-casting, clearly violated the terms of the un-b*. Even if one accepts the idea that it was reasonable he didn't think it applied to his own talk page, he was informed it did, and then did it again in the same thread. The anger and the lack of judgement resulting from it clearly had not dissipated. So I think the new block was justified, and should be sat out. After that he should be allowed to return again, because he appears to be correct that a community un-b* decision some time ago agreed to this and that others have been trying to undo that consensus finding. Just let it alone. If he can cool off for another month, and come back and actually avoid antagonistic anti-admin stuff and go back to productive editing, hurrah, the project wins. If he goes back to the same disruption, that's proof – without need for much further discussion of any kind – that the WP:TIGER has WP:ROPEd its own neck with its own stripes, to mix a metaphor involving redundant essays. If it comes to that latter result, I would think the discussion would be quite brief and nearly unanimous for an indef. But people also should not be baiting him and basically trying to engineer him into a slip-up. Just walk away, let him edit when comes back, and he'll either do well or he won't.

I'm not sure what to say about Floq's abrupt exit. I find it surprising and out-of-character, but people leave (and often come back after a year or whatever, as I did myself, and people do so for various reasons that are not always transparent to others). I believe we all own our own emotions, and I've stepped away from WP quite a number of times, for a month, 3 months, even a whole year, other than sporadic responses to things people e-mail me about. It's healthy to do so. This should be a pleasurable project to work on, not a source of stress, but we make that stress for ourselves for the most part by getting over-involved in disputes that, in the long run, really don't matter much. If you're making "enemies" as well as friends on WP, you're doing it wrong.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  03:49, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A highly personal opinion on the infamous "unpleasant but productive" editors

boldly hatting - AN is definitely a wrong venue for this
The following discussion has been closed by No such user. Please do not modify it.

I've often talked about my view of this, and this affords me an opportunity to expound my thoughts a bit more. This is going to be a very personal (and unpopular) opinion with which I expect most of the regular AN crowd to disagree. Kumioko/Reguyla, to my eyes, falls in the same general category as Eric Corbett, Niemti, Technical 13, Alakzi, Δ (and others I'm forgetting about, no offense): editors who are productive/constructive when it comes to encyclopedic content (or technical development of the project as a whole, including MediaWiki, Templates or tools), but otherwise can prove ill-natured, unpleasant, stubborn, intransigeant, prone to ranting/complaining or POINTy behaviour, prone to displays of anger or who sometimes lash out in frustration, and whose behaviour is often not conducive to a positive, collaborative community atmosphere. This class of editors... oooh, the community loves to hate them and bash them and wring them like dishcloths on any administrative noticeboard they can, waving the banners of civility and putting the well-being of the community before the health of the encyclopedia -- whereas I see encyclopedia content as paramount and the community behind it as secondary and optional. Working with good people is fun and preferable whenever possible, but I'd rather have to deal with jerks and assholes who write desirable and good encyclopedic content then hang out with nice, pleasant people who slowly circlejerk their e-peens around the so-called "dramaboards". The end result that serves readers should reign supreme and I wish the community would grant considerably more leeway for misbehaviour in interhuman relationships when the content contributions are worth taking a bit of verbal abuse. I guess I'm being utopic... ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 03:45, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Salvidrim: Just to be clear, you are saying Kumioko's actions amounted to "a bit of verbal abuse"? I think it was more than that and you are doing a disservice to the other editors you mention. --NeilN talk to me 03:54, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No. I did not say that, no matter how hard you try to make it look like way. Words are not a thing I want you to force into my mouth. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 03:58, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Shrug. Your opinion makes little sense to me as no community = no encyclopedia. Nice edit summary, BTW. --NeilN talk to me 04:13, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
And that notion of the community being so intertwined with the encyclopedia so as to equal its importance is something we must resolve to disagree on... ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 04:15, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • (edit conflict) Nobody is above the policies of civility. It comes down to the fact that this one person is alienating numerous other editors. One person, no matter how productive, gets to make other people so uncomfortable that they leave. That is not good for the encyclopedia either. In fact, I posit that it is worse since the one person can cause multiple other editors to leave eliminating a bunch of content creators. Nobody is irreplaceable. Nobody should have the right to cause others that much angst simply because they are a content producer. There are other content producers. People bring up what is a "net positive" for the project. Eliminating one problem content producer in order to keep many other content producers is a net positive for the project. --Stabila711 (talk) 03:57, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • When you are building the encyclopedia collaboratively, the community is neither secondary nor optional. Indeed, it's actually an integral part of the process and there is a reason that civility is in the Five Pillars. Being able to work with others and respecting the community is as important as the content it produces; for without either there would be neither. Your scenario is not Utopia but Dystopia and I highly doubt that you'd be contributing to this project if it was rife with the unpleasant attitudes you describe. You'd be somewhere else, we all would. Let's not pretend otherwise. Keegan (talk) 05:41, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • +1. This is a collaborative encyclopedia. The well-being of the community is essential to the health of the encyclopedia. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 06:25, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Also +1. No "brilliant jerks" here please. The Land (talk) 12:04, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Statement from WTT

More bold hatting. Further extended discussion on this is not going to go anywhere. Best case: Worm has provided a first rate example of the community's willingness to give everyone another chance and AGF. Worst case: Misjudgement on who the community is willing to extend it to. No need for further raking over the coals on this. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:13, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

I'm really not used to being at the centre of a shitstorm, as anyone who has seen me around knows. I knew this was a possibility and have spent a long time trying to find a solution to this problem. Kumioko can be a good editor - I've seen him do it. He's got a long history of writing well, prolific anti-vandalism and putting the effort in. Unfortunately, he was burned by RfA a few years back - and that's why I care. RfA is a pet hate of mine and I spend a lot of my time trying to improve it.
So, Kumioko ended up on a downward spiral, ended up banned because he wouldn't shut up and then went and burned his bridges. Make no mistake, I've been on Arbcom, I sincerely believe he doesn't stand a chance of returning through BASC or UTRS. Yet, the community agreed to unban him - but in my opinion, gave him a woolly restriction that led to him being blocked - eventually leading to the indef.
I left it a decent period, following his edits, watching his attitude. I believed there was a gap for him to return. If that means I've been "drinking too much at the fountain of good faith", that's certainly my true - that's who I am. I believe in people and I believe in this project. The day I stop being that person is the day I leave. I'm sorry this has turned out this way. I'm extremely sorry to have lost floquenbeam, who I consider a friend and one of the best people on Wikipedia (also, I apologise for calling his actions an ultimatum, it appeared to be framed that way and I was wrong there)
That said, I don't regret giving him the chance. Based on the discussions I had and the evidence I'd seen (which was a lot, I didn't take this decision lightly) it was the right thing to do. I won't promise never to make a controversial unblock again in the future (though I will probably do things differently).
Finally, there were a handful of people who were aware this was going to happen, including an arbitrator who I assume told the rest of the committee. I was advised against it by some that I told, supported by others. But this was my decision - if there are repercussions, they should be on me and me alone. WormTT(talk) 07:48, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Worm, can you clarify this part: "I left it a decent period, following his edits, watching his attitude"? If he was indef blocked, what edits were there to follow, and what attitude to watch? Softlavender (talk) 07:54, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Softlavender. The attitude was by email - I've been one of those targetted by his email abuse campaign and I've watched the attitude turn from a hate-everyone to something willing to compromise. The edits are the block evasions, there were a handful of accounts and the vast majority of the edits by those accounts were good. If he compromised, as I sincerely believed he was ready to, and went back to making those edits yesterday, we wouldn't be having this conversation. There may be people hopping up and down that I unblocked him, but he would have been proving himself. Instead, he proved himself... the wrong way. WormTT(talk) 08:02, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for explaining about the block evasions. As Dennis says above, many people don't have the full story. It's not for lack of trying though, I don't think; the full story has not been given to us. I think it would be great if the full story would be given to us. (I personally think the various block evasions are yet another reason the site-ban should be instituted; but that's my personal opinion.) Softlavender (talk) 08:11, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
My only real concern in this; why didn't you run such a controversial unblock past the community? If it was because you were sure the community would be set against it, wouldn't that be a red flag that what you were doing was not a good idea anyway? (For what it's worth, I would not have been against a limited unblock, but I think the way it was done went predictably poorly). Black Kite (talk) 08:37, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, and the community is, rather predictably, experiencing it as a betrayal. Hindsight is 20/20, but in the future could we please avoid these backroom decisions to re-allow indeffed or banned users (who are already often continuing to block-evade and are thus doubly untrustworthy) back without due notice and due process? Softlavender (talk) 08:55, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. "Predictably poorly," - poor judgement, WTT, about others (Reguyla, and about your good faith collaborators commenting above, and to you before you did this). Also, WTT, you skate on the thin ice of hubris, with statements like 'it was the right thing to do' - no doubt you were told it would turn out poorly, and it has - no matter what happens now. Alanscottwalker (talk) 09:10, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I sincerely believed that it wouldn't be nearly this controversial. He had already been unbanned, if he came back and just went straight to work, it wouldn't have caused nearly this level of controversy. WormTT(talk) 10:28, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • IMO, this should be dropped. WTT took a bold action in good faith, there was brief disruption, the block was reinstated. We do this a lot per WP:ROPE anyway, and I think WTT makes a good case that Kumioko's past good work does earn at least this much consideration. Guy (Help!) 09:20, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • My colleague with the sophisticated user name hit the nail on the head, as usual. I would add that no harm was done to the encyclopedia other than one snarky comment on a talk page that those who get overly upset by this sort of thing shouldn't be watching in the first place. If Reguyla/Kumioko doesn't get point after being hit in the head with a one-month clue-by-four just give him more WP:ROPE, let his strikes run out, indef him, and nobody will ever even think of unblocking him again. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:29, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) I don't mean to pile on, but I confess I'm very concerned to also hear about the intended reintroduction of Betacommand, behind closed doors and without the community's prior knowledge. How often has this rehabbing of really notorious editors been done, and how successfully? Could we possibly call for an end to WTT's secret rehabbing of problematic banned/indeffed editors? I'm not making a judgment of why it is being done, I just don't think it's a good idea at all, and given the way this one turned out, and the likely scenario if Betacommand were released back into the wild, I think it's possibly time to consider another wiki "hobby". Things need to be done the right way, and for the right reasons, and for editors who abide by ban/block policies, not the scurrilous ones who don't. Softlavender (talk) 09:31, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Secret? No, I've not "secretly" been in contact with Betacommand - I don't believe I've ever had off-wiki communications with him. I offered to mentor him back in the day - probably 2012? I'll see if I can pull up the link. WormTT(talk) 10:00, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I interpreted your comment far above "Just noting that I've tried in the past to work Betacommand in a similar manner - just before his community ban. I hope there is a way back for him too" to mean that you were likewise grooming, or intending to groom, Δ/Betacommand to return. Softlavender (talk) 10:21, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
And I can see why. I can't find where I offered Betacommand mentorship. It's lost in the mists of time - it would have been before his community ban, maybe 2011/12 - I was just pointing out I don't pick favourites! I have found an email from him though, while I was on Arbcom, asking how to come back, my response was "Explaining what went wrong, how you might prevent it from going wrong in the future and what you hope to achieve by returning would be a good start". WormTT(talk) 10:32, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Like Worm, I had been considering a path back for some time. Worm simply made it happen, which is why I endorsed as I had been familiar with the entire case. People are missing the point that Reguyla WAS brought before the community and unbanned, and they agreed to unblock after 6 months. This was well over 6 months ago. The "kangaroo court" comment was about the initial ban discussion, NeilN, where we banned him after a couple hours of discussion. I stand by that statement. We shouldn't be banning someone without at least a day or two of discussion, yet we did and too many are willing to ignore that fact that contributed to the problem here. It is no secret that we often get it wrong or simply do it wrong at ANI.
Has it turned out horribly bad? Yes, quite obviously. Again like Worm, the day I am not willing to take some risk to bring back a prolific editor is the day I will turn in my bits. I regret that Reguyla didn't have the good judgement to just return to editing, but what he did on his talk page wasn't what I saw in email over the last two years. Worm and I independently came to the conclusion that an eventual unblock was worth trying. We didn't work together on this, it wasn't coordinated in any way, although I endorsed his efforts and will stand by his actions as if they were my own. This wasn't a rushed unblock, it was a calculated risk, examined over a year. Not all risks work out. Such is life. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 11:25, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, this was my action and mine alone - to those who might be thinking of blaming Dennis, he was aware of it, but not involved in creating it or implementing it. WormTT(talk) 11:37, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Why was the prior ban discussion is this exact forum a "kangaroo court"? Saying a "couple hours" shows a disregard for facts. Original ban discussion: Filing: [6] 22:16, 25 February 2014 Closing: [7] 22:28, 27 February 2014 Elapsed time: 2 days, 12 minutes. NE Ent 12:34, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No. Admins who take controversial positions, inspire little to no confidence when they base them on fundamental factual errors, and in the process accuse others of bad faith (which is the meaning of 'kangaroo court'). Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:10, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Can I just add the obvious, which is that notorious indeffed or banned editors will, in emails, say anything, promise the moon, act like angels, and lie through their teeth, for months or years on end even, to get unblocked. Why is this not taken into account? And why do one or two admins believe they can have the measure of the man and the authority to by-pass process to let a notorious disruptor come back, on the strength of that disruptor's word? It sort of baffles me. But since that's what happened, I feel like I have to point out the obvious and say "You can't trust 'em." You can't trust someone who has repeatedly and inexorably proven themselves untrustworthy. Softlavender (talk) 12:36, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've spent months looking into this, but it doesn't matter. I'm supposed to be on Wikibreak due to work, and simply don't have time to debate this ad nauseum. Do what you will, it is pretty obvious at this point where the discussion is heading and frankly, I don't think any amount of explaining would make a difference, and I simply have other things to do outside of Wikipedia that actually matter. I can accept that the community disagrees, that's fine, but this has turned into something else. That Kumioko/Reguyla has been stupid enough to feed the frenzy doesn't particularly help either. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 13:20, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Again with the "pitchforks and torches" allusion. --NeilN talk to me 13:57, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • In as much as this was obviously an egregious error to unblock given Kumioko's history, I can easily forgive the good faith hope from WTT that this leopard could change his spots. However, reading Dennis Brown's comments, I think he should be completely enjoined from taking any administrative actions as it relates to Kumioko, broadly construed. Resolute 17:02, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I never have taken any administration actions in regard to Kumioko, nor did I expect to, so I fail to see the point here. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:29, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Quick question. Jehochman closed that AN discussion, which started as a proposal to ban Kumioko, but he closed it as a "mandatory wiki-break"--sounds like a block. I looked, but I don't see Jehochman placing a note in WP:Editing restrictions or on any talk page, though he deleted Reguyla's talk page, twice, the next day, or edit the block log/renew/revise the block. This is one of the rare cases where the difference between a ban and a block may well be material; we're all talking about a banned user, but if Kumioko was banned Worm couldn't have overturned that by himself. The log for KumiokoCleanStart actually has the block, by Atama, "Banned by the community per discussion at WP:AN". So what Jehochman called a break was a ban? Then, K's block log notes a block from June, citing a ban by the community--on 1 June 2014, by Callanecc, "see User talk:KumiokoCleanStart for more information". But there's nothing there from June 2014, and I cannot find an AN discussion about Kumioko from June 2014. So, did Jehochman ban or block Kumioko? What happened in June 2014--am I missing something obvious? Drmies (talk) 17:36, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Drmies, the full discussion is here in several sections. You have to read past Jehochman's initial attempt to close it to the final closing as a ban. Voceditenore (talk) 18:24, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the complained about posts Reg said " But its time to set that all aside and move on." it is outstandingly clear that "moving on" is the issue. Let Reg edit the project don't drag the whole thing down with meta- and meta-meta-arguments.
  • And the attacks on our two best people-handling-admins, WTT and Dennis, really show the mob-mentality which I hoped had been purged from AN/I over the last couple of years.
All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 17:46, 6 October 2015 (UTC).[reply]
    • Opining they made poor decisions is an attack? --NeilN talk to me 17:59, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • If you read the whole discussion there is a lot more than "Opining they made poor decisions". And even that is not thought through. It can be, as they both maintain and a lot of respectable folk allow, a good decision with a bad result. Or it could be as I would say, a basically good decision that needed a little more careful execution to succeed. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 18:11, 6 October 2015 (UTC).[reply]
  • Why doesn't everybody here try to be a little generous and just let things resolve. Reguyla/Kumioko was banned and should stay banned until there's a clear discussion to unban him. It doesn't matter what injustices might have precipitated his reactions; they were disruptive enough that the editor has no excuse, and the matter should not be re-litigated at this point. If there was an excessively good-faith-assuming unblock, just accept it and move on. If Kumioko got re-blocked, let that stand. Wikipedia is far from being the only site on the Internet. Editors who don't fit in here, for whatever reason, can go some place else and contribute their energies where they are appreciated. We should not spend excessive resources trying to reform or conform. Jehochman Talk 18:40, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • If one were really interested in doing something to help build the encyclopedia here while being blocked or banned, I will say what I have said to Reguyla/Kumioko before. Over at wikisource:User:John Carter I have a rather extensive list of public domain reference works, some of which have been started there, but many haven't. A person could easily work transcribing material there, and even, in some cases, probably even persuade others to wait to import still reasonable content here for a while if one were under sanctions here. Then, on the return, one could have enough very useful material to add to enough articles from the first day that there would be little if any reason not to welcome their input. I know that Reguyla has said elsewhere he has been developing encyclopedic content on some wikia sites while blocked here, and he is clearly welcome to do so, but it might be more productive in the long term, and maybe more likely to help persuade others to lift sanctions here, if he were to do something elsewhere which could easily be done here as well, to the benefit of the encyclopedia. And, honestly, there is a hell of a lot of material on the US military, and the military in general, and the US in general, over there which could be developed for importation here - probably even a full year's worth. John Carter (talk) 18:54, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Seriously, guys? This lynch mob, beating the everliving shit out of a dead horse after a situation had already been resolved exemplifies everything that's wrong with the AN/ANI crowds and why the people who work here in good faith aren't taken seriously for hanging out at the "drama boards". Christ. This entire discussion is both a comical and tragic overreaction to an administrator acting within his discretion and according to one of the key guidelines of this project: Wikipedia:Assume good faith. It was clearly an intensely thought-out and well-planned unblock with stringent conditions and that's hardly unreasonable or unusual. WP:ROPE is the overarching caveat to any risky assumption of good faith that basically represents the notion that if you do wrongfully assume good faith, it's not a big deal. Sure, he immediately made an ass of himself and immediately threw all that good faith out the window. He was reblocked and the project did not suffer at all for it. So what? There's no such thing as a permanent block and there's absolutely nothing wrong with giving an indeffed user another chance in an assumption of good faith. Worm was proven to be wrong and has done nothing but own up to it. There's absolutely no reason for this shitstorm. Go contribute to the damn encyclopedia. Let me reiterate what JzG said: IMO, this should be dropped. WTT took a bold action in good faith, there was brief disruption, the block was reinstated. We do this a lot per WP:ROPE anyway, and I think WTT makes a good case that Kumioko's past good work does earn at least this much consideration. Everything beyond that absolutely is "torches and pitchforks"-esque and a round of trouts to everyone who contributed to this shameful attempt at turning this into a flame war. May you all soon return to actually contributing to the greatest compendium of human knowledge ever created, as opposed to drama mongering and beating up members of our own team, whose only mistake was to exercise too much kindness to another human being. Shame on you all and happy Tuesday! Swarm ♠ 22:15, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't see anyone asking Worm for a pint of blood. Mostly the community is trying to put to bed an issue that has been taking up an inordinate amount of time. I find your characterization of this discussion to be belittling. This is not an angry mob, people are calmly making very good points. As far the comment about a flame war goes I would say your post was among the flamiest comments made here. HighInBC 22:29, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your feedback, and no offense, but I found your commentary to be among the most excessive and unhelpful. You suggest WTT was attempting to "redefine terms set by the community" (i.e. actively and willfully flaunting consensus), you refer to it as a "cowboy unblock" (obviously implying that it was reckless, thoughtless, and in disregard of potential damage caused), you suggest in no uncertain terms that a policy violation was committed (alleging admin abuse), you suggest that it results in good editors leaving the project and that they are right to do so (rather than standing by the core principles espoused in WP:COOL, WP:ROPE and WP:NVC), you suggest that an admin cannot work out unblock conditions with a blocked user (this is something that's perfectly reasonable to do and is literally done in common practice)...this is all exaggerated, inflammatory and unnecessary and I can't rightly see any way you're helping anything. If you're trying to politely and calmly make what you feel are "good points" then I would suggest that you should try harder move on. Swarm ♠ 22:56, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
One more point, Floquenbeam has long been my favorite editor on this project and I'm certainly not alone in that, but this is an obvious overreaction on their part and is certainly nothing to become a martyr over. This is a big project and it is unreasonable to lose faith in it over a singular incident. I am just as sad to see Floq go as everyone else is, but it's clearly a result of them both losing perspective and control of their emotions. This is understandable and it happens to all of us at some point, but let's not pretend that they've been mercilessly driven away by some egregious act of irreparable harm done and it's totally reasonable to give up on the project over this. Swarm ♠ 23:16, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I second what Swarm said above. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:32, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't like the characterization of Floq as a martyr, as unreasonable, as having lost perspective, and as having lost control of his emotions. You pretty much spelled out D I V A. No, we should not have yet another extensive back-and-forth over that, but that's some awful words you used, though you started nicely by saying "favorite editor". Admins get tired of dealing with shit (I've only dealt with Kumioko a few times), and Floq is only the latest one. Drmies (talk) 03:08, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry you feel my choice of words was awful Drmies, I totally disagree though. I wasn't trying to launch any sort of attack on Floq, nor am I trying to be condescending or dismissive, but I don't think I'm wrong at all, regardless of the high esteem I hold Floq in. I totally understand becoming burned out and sick of the bullshit but let us remember that Wikipedia is not compulsory, we involve ourselves to the degree we do completely voluntarily. No one involves themselves emotionally to the point of leaving the project over a single incident voluntarily, it happens when we lose the perspective that the users and conflicts on this website are not the end of the world, and when we lose control of our emotions. It's not an attack to point that out, hell, it's not a bad thing at all, it's a perfectly natural human occurrence. But let's be honest here. "Diva" implies that a user rage quits every time they get involved in a dispute and I am absolutely not implying that this is a diva move, but it is more of a rage quit as opposed to a rational, justified response to a disputed action. If Floq is giving up on the greatest compendium of human knowledge ever created, over this trivial, momentary distraction, that's a shame but I will not hesitate in suggesting that they have lost perspective. Not at all. Not one bit. Swarm ♠ 04:20, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry but I take issue with that. You don't need "rage" to quit a project that fails to prevent abusive people from interacting with editors. You call it trivial, but I consider a non-hostile work environment far from trivial. It was plenty rational, I only hope that the community's response will change their mind. I damn near walked away myself, and it was not out of rage. HighInBC 04:59, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • I suggest that we should not be speculating on Floq's reasoning for the choices he makes. — Ched :  ?  06:54, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Subpage?

Discussion seems to have finished and in agreement. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 03:20, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This thread is 163,127 bytes and growing, currently 46% of this page. Does anyone object to this all being moved to a dedicated subpage with a link left behind? I am sure every other topic here will appreciate it. HighInBC 19:14, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've no objection. —Jeremy v^_^v Bori! 20:50, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I, on the other hand, do object. AN can cope with this size thread for a few days, its not ANI, and historically, threads go to subpages to to turn into walled gardens where only the people who have a vested interest hang around. If there is one thing that is good for this sort of situation, its fresh eyes. WormTT(talk) 21:21, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. HighInBC 22:06, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, if we're going to great lengths to avoid any appearance of unfairness, I think it's necessary to keep it on the main page. BMK (talk) 22:58, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well he is saying now that we can close this any time. Perhaps it will not be open the entire week. HighInBC 23:05, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If only to remove any possibility of the user trying to revoke their approval of us moving forward, I strongly oppose any attempt to move faster. This user has attempted to use the "I was railroaded" argument multiple times and I want it read in no uncertain terms that this was a deliberate and considered position. Hasteur (talk) 03:00, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There is some wisdom to that. I will leave it as an exercise to the closer(s). HighInBC 03:07, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Could he be redeemed?

I vehemently opposed the idea of stopping the community from being able to look at Regulya's case above, because the community is his only viable way back. There will be people who absolutely oppose his return and I can absolutely understand why, but I have a question for the rest. Could Regulya be redeemed?

I've largely kept out of this AN, because he had me spitting feathers with his return. But for those of you who wondered how I could be so naive, see his final response above. I'm going to pick out a few lines.

  • I said made that statement last year that you link too and I said a lot of other things in anger back then but I never did any vandalism other than some talk page comments that although not vandalism were certainly unnecessary and unkind
    Acceptance that he did wrong
  • I lost my respect for the community and the project back then and lost my composure. For that I am sorry. [...] I went off the rails and damaged my reputation and my history of contributions on the project.
    Reflective explanation and apology
  • I would ask if there is some path to get back into editing but I know there isn't.
    Willingness to move forward
  • [Worm] and Dennis put their reputations on the line with this unblock and I let them down with that comment that I felt was minor and didn't think that anyone would really give a shit about one comment on my talk page that anyone could ignore. I was wrong.
    Taking personal responsibility
  • If you want to blame someone for this mess then blame me. Worm and Dennis didn't do anything and neither did GorillaWarfare by posting my responses. So if you have issue with me, then blame me, not them.
    Selflessness
  • You are free to close this discussion at any time. It is evident that there is no desire within this community for me to participate here so there is no need to continue this AN discussion just to ensure I cannot complain about the process. The process is fine, the consensus is that my ban is to continue indefinitely as it has been for the last 2 years
    Acceptance of reality

To those who say Reguyla hasn't changed - read those sentences and tell me he hasn't. If you want to believe he's lying through his teeth, that's fine, but that's never been his style. Now, maybe the community is just not ready for him to return. But I ask, genuinely - what would it take for him to return? WormTT(talk) 08:07, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

People with Kumioko's personality traits can be very persuasive when they need to be. You have been, I'm afraid, taken in. Nothing about him has changed in the least. BMK (talk) 10:11, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Not really happy with your attempt to define a person's psychological makeup and predict his future behavior when the only evidence you have are the words typed on one website. Then again, people with your personality traits tend to do that a lot, and you will never change. (Note to the humor impaired: that last bit was a bit of good-natured kidding among friends, not a serious comment about BMK.) --Guy Macon (talk) 00:24, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. Quite a few editors have been subjected to WP:ACDS for doing precisely that. WP is not the place for ad homimen attempts at amateur psychiatry. As a matter of policy we're expected to AGF about mea culpas of this sort, and they're listed among the things that are most likely to get the ocmmunity to consider un-blocks, un-bans, second RfAs and other rehabilitation matters. It's a WP:TIGER/WP:ROPE matter. If after all of the above, Reguyla comes back and goes right back into the screw-all-admin and WP-process-can-go-F-itself antics, the stripes are shown and the rope drawn tight.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  06:31, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If Reguyla can stay away from Wikipedia (no socks, no emails, no ip evasions) for the length of his community ban? I would support his reinstatement. He must show restraint. GoodDay (talk) 08:11, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Over the past 6 years observing the community's moods and whims, it is actually very unlikely anyone ending up in similar situations can be redeemed, regardless of what they do. I cannot think of any single instance where prominent users subjected to a ban have come back and stayed on for the long term. Every single editor who tried is under constant scrutiny, and their past thrown in their face whenever it is convenient for someone disagreeing with them. Old opponents do not drop their grudges, ever, and bury the returning users under reports over the slightest missteps. Eventually, even the most patient editors snap - and those who were arbcom or community banned before tend to not be the most patient editors in the first place. So to answer the question, no, I don't think Regulya can be redeemed, because Wikipedia is not a forgiving community. MLauba (Talk) 08:52, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm one of the redeemed. It's true about the scrutiny, the past being thrown in one's face etc. That's happened to me almost every time, when in content dispute discussions. GoodDay (talk) 08:59, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
A new clean start after the present block expires is probably the best bet.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  06:31, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would support a return to editing if he respects the community's above decision and doesn't sock for a while ... six months would do it for me. Clearly he loves this project. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 09:37, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

He perhaps could be. I've had numerous interactions with Reguyla on IRC, many of which have resulted in my banning him from channels. He's definitely engaged in harassment and disruption to the point where I consider whether he'd ever be welcome back in the community. I never expected that Reguyla would think I was on his side after our interactions; I think he may have mistaken my willingness to post his comments as a form of support for his position. That said, if he's willing to take a year off from participating on Wikipedia (including socking, no matter how much net benefit he thinks he's making) and decides that he is willing to consider that perhaps not everyone is out to get him, I'd consider allowing him to return. That said, this has not been a promising return (in all stages: before the unblock, after the unblock, and after the reblock), so I think Reguyla would have to make a considerable effort to regain the trust of the community in order to return successfully. His continued threats to sock do not qualify, regardless how righteous he may think they are. GorillaWarfare (talk) 09:41, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry. Continued threats to sock? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 09:45, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That was unclear, sorry. I was referring to the socking he's been doing over the past year or so, not claiming that he's been threatening to sock during this whole process. GorillaWarfare (talk) 20:25, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Redeemed? This is not a soul in danger of eternal damnation in the fires of hell if we don't do something, and we are not Saint Good Faith performing miracles. Could R return to editing? In theory, yes, anytime they choose: see Quiet Return. In practice, of course not, because for many years it hasn't been about improving the encyclopedia, it's been about Reguyla improving the encyclopedia.

For example, seven years ago, an editor asked for help at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive151#Am_I_being_blacklisted; Reguyla's response [8] was: I doubt that you are being blacklisted, in addition to the absence of SatyrTN I have noticed a sharp decline in several areas of WP including edits in general. It seems that people just aren't participating as much lately. I for one have drastically reduced the amount of time I spend editing and creating articles because my RFA and other RFA's have shown me that the general feeling within the established community seems to be that participating in wikispace and non article pages are more important when striving to become an admin and get the mop. So although I no longer desire the admin bit the unnecessary buearocracy and drama that has been prevailing on WP of late also caused me a lack of edit-drive and thus reduced editing. Perhaps others have the same feelings. Good Luck.--Kumioko (talk) 3:47 pm, 19 June 2008, Thursday (7 years, 3 months, 21 days ago) (UTC−4) (emphasis mine)

The GW transcribed comments in green above, all essentially WP:NOTTHEM variants continue the pattern. That fact that attempting to frame this as something plausible required cherry picking and recasting Reguyla's actual comments is an indication of how little substance there really is here.

I don't know if Reguyla lies, because I don't know if his falsehoods are intentionally deceptive or simply misrememories, but he certainly prevaricates. For example the statement about A small group of people kept resubmitting ban requests till they got what they wanted. is to the best of my recollection simply untrue. I submitted the single, successful ban request and I'm pretty sure I opposed banning in discussions before that.

"Redemption" is a meaningless red herring; the relevant question is whether it is worth the continued expenditure of volunteer hours to pursue this. And the answer is obviously no. NE Ent 12:15, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Reguyla has certainly talked the talk about understanding the reasons for his bans and how much he wants to focus on writing great encyclopedia articles. Then a moment later he's deliberately stirring up drama in such a way as to get re-blocked. That suggests to me that there is a very big gap indeed between his perceptions and reality, and that while he can use the right words to persuade people he's changing course, that doesn't reflect any actual ability to do so. It's against my nature to say "never" but I think this behaviour is very very unlikely to change. The Land (talk) 12:52, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Worm That Turned, let's just start with your first excerpt: I said made that statement last year that you link too and I said a lot of other things in anger back then but I never did any vandalism other than some talk page comments that although not vandalism were certainly unnecessary and unkind [my bolding]. You have characterised this as "Acceptance that he did wrong". Now take a look at the spate of BLP vandalism he indulged in on March 3. 2014, the most egregious of which was this followed shortly thereafter by this comment. Here's a further example of deliberately introducing false information by another of his socks a month later. Less harmful, but still vandalism to article space was to remove the featured list icon from multiple articles by yet another of his socks [9]. And as for lying not being "his style", just read User talk:ShmuckatellieJoe from start to sordid finish, he's been at it since 2012. And was he was still at it two months ago.
There is nothing in any of the remaining quotes that demonstrates anything but a determination to prevaricate and dissimulate so that he can continue expressing his unabated contempt not only for the people he thinks have wronged him but also for those who have tried to help him. The only way he could be "redeemed" as far as I can see, is for him to break the cycle of obsession, lies and abuse of trust for which he and he alone is responsible. He needs to stay away for one year, with no socking ("good" or bad) and come back with a pledge to edit productively and constructively with no excuses or justifications for what he did before. If he is unwilling to do that, well, no, he can't be "redeemed". If he is willing, well maybe. But there are no shortcuts. Voceditenore (talk) 13:03, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Having said that, I agree with NE Ent that "redemption" is a meaningless red herring here. Applying a concept like that to his destructive and self-centered shenanigans simply glorifies them and is truly inappropriate. The repentant sinner dialogue above means nothing. Voceditenore (talk) 13:53, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I, too, agree with NE Ent's comment above. BMK (talk) 18:13, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

[Worm] and Dennis put their reputations on the line with this unblock and I let them down with that comment that I felt was minor and didn't think that anyone would really give a shit about one comment on my talk page that anyone could ignore. I was wrong. This perfectly illustrates the issue. He wasn't blocked for that one comment but a subsequent one. He seems remarkably self-unaware or is incapable of understanding that "don't do that" means "don't do that". How can a person change if they honestly feel what they're doing is going to be accepted? I ask as someone who has never participated in Regulya's RFAs or the block/ban discussions surrounding him but has cleaned up some of his socking disruption as a routine course of action. --NeilN talk to me 13:18, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In my humble opinion those seeking to limit reconsideration of this ban from the community are exceeding their authority. Consensus can change, and we cannot come to a consensus now that cannot be overridden by consenus later. If the community has a miraculous change of heart later it can of course change it's mind.
That being said I find it unlikely to happen. Even if this user can be redeemed I don't think it is reasonable for the community to spend more time than it has already dealing with this, we are not therapy.
This person is an expert sockpuppet and if they really wanted to come back and contribute without disruption we probably would not notice. We notice their sock puppets because they always mention how unfair his block was and how corrupt the admin core is. We notice them because he uses them to engage in extortion and to abuse our editors. We don't notice his sock puppets because we recognize his valuable contributions. This guy has at least one way back, just don't be disruptive with their next sock puppet. HighInBC 14:46, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think if someone with a similar writing style who wrote extensively about Medal of Honor recipients showed up today, he would be banned by approximately tomorrow, even if his manners were impeccable. Everyking (talk) 02:37, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, and therein lies the rub. Our current process is counterproductive in this regard.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  06:31, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That this section is being proposed while we are debating the CBAN proposal smacks of deliberately creating an alternate proposal to water down any concluding consensus. Hasteur (talk) 18:38, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It's entirely normal in any RfC-like process to introduce alt. proposals. Why should this page be different? They usually are ignored, but fairly often they turn out to be the better option.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  06:31, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Worm I must say your comment If you want to believe he's lying through his teeth, that's fine, but that's never been his style is a little shocking. There is an abundance of evidence clearly available that shows lying through his teeth is very much his style and has been for years. This person is an expert liar who will say pretty much anything to get their ban removed. Are you reading the various diffs being posted? Do you remember a couple of days ago when he said he would follow your restrictions then immediately did not? HighInBC 20:12, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
HighInBC, Worm's impression is not surprising. Kumioko/Reguyla had so many socks that what he has actually got up to over the years has not always been formally documented in SPIs etc. RBI has its merits, but in cases like this, it's sometimes very counterproductive. Finding the chicanery and lies is often down to chance. I first encountered him when as an IP he interfered in a very unconstructive way with a very distraught user in a very fraught AfD for the user's autobiography. I followed various links, soon figured out what was going on, and caught Kumioko/Reguyla in another blatant lie here. This is one of the reasons that I found Dennis Brown's comments here so distasteful, stating that those of us who knew what was going on were simply a mob with pitchforks while he allegedly had the full picture but his "knowledge" was too complicated for him to explain to us peons. I'm an ordinary editor, not an admin, and I confess that I find sockpuppetry absolutely loathsome, worse even than incivility. It completely destroys trust amongst editors and the collegiality that makes Wikipedia work, and in this case led to Worm falling for Kumioko's lies hook line and sinker. I very much doubt that Kumioko/Reguyla feels any remorse whatsoever for that. Voceditenore (talk) 22:14, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This thread is supposed to be about Reguyla/Kumioko's behaviour and the ways to face it. But we can see several attempts by User:Worm_That_Turned to derail this procedure and turn it into an evaluation of the behaviour of the unblocking admin. Before the unblock, this admin was rock-solid sure to know, better than anyone else, how to deal with the Reguyla/Kumioko's behaviour. Now, we are after the cristal-clear failure of this experiment. Nevertheless, User:Worm_That_Turned ensures assures us that the unblocking admin has not changed his mind and remains, as of now, convinced to know better than anyone how to redeem the lost souls. How to address such a situation ? Pldx1 (talk) 21:21, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I am having trouble parsing your comment. You mention Worm and "the unblocking admin" as though they are two people. Worm was the unblocking admin, who did you mean? HighInBC 22:36, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
To me Pldx1's meaning was quite clear: Worm = the unblocking admin. Sort of like Venus and "morning star". Voceditenore (talk) 22:53, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think you are right. I was thrown off by the User:Worm_That_Turned ensures[sic: read assures] us that the unblocking admin part which seemed to treat them like two people. Assuming that was just a language problem you are right it is clear. HighInBC 22:58, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. Voceditenore and HighInBC are right to assume that my ensures was in fact an assures. Previous message modified accordingly. Pldx1 (talk) 07:00, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Venus = Morning Star? [Citation Needed] --Guy Macon (talk) 08:25, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Reguyla/Kumioko's sockpuppets

I'd like to request that, without prejudice to former good-faith decisions made via email, all of the currently known Reguyla/Kumioko sockpuppets be publicly revealed, blocked, and categorized, and an SPI thread opened/started regarding them, so that (unkown and/or) future socks could likewise be compiled and categorized as such. It appears that at least two admins currently know of existing socks. I'd also like to request that, going forward, if any admin becomes aware of any user's sockpuppets, block-evading or otherwise, that they report and block the socks, regardless of the circumstances or rationale. Thanks, and no prejudice regarding past actions or decisions made in good faith. Softlavender (talk) 04:56, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Why? Actually, no, bad idea. We're supposed to be here to build an encyclopedia, and if there's a quiescent sock that's not disrupting anything, what possible value is there classifying / categorizing / making a fuss about it? Building a shrine to disruption essentially ends up glorifying it. And the 2015 Wiki award to the editor with the most socks goes to ... NE Ent 10:40, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree. This is tantamount to saying that some editors get to evade blocks, and some don't; some editors get to sockpuppet, and some don't; some editors get to violate policy, and some don't; some editors get to violate policy repeatedly without the least bit of sanction, and some don't. How is this even a matter of consideration or debate? Policy is clear, and I don't see any policy that exempts anyone from policy. If I'm mistaken, and editors are now allowed to evade blocks and/or sockpuppet, please let me know where that policy is located. Softlavender (talk) 12:26, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
NE Ent, there is one good reason not to do this and one jaw-droppingly bad one. You cited the jaw-droppingly bad one. We don't have the concept of being a little bit banned, and the entire point here is that Reguyla has to show that he can actually not violate policy for six months, which is not a big ask given how determinedly he has done so in the past.
The good reason for not doing it is that there is absolutely nothing to be gained by rubbing his nose in his own mess, other than to provoke more of the same. Looking at your input to and evident delight in exploiting the various drama venues, I wonder if perhaps that wasn't your plan here, but if so it is not a good plan. Guy (Help!) 14:28, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
'Actually a good idea I can't go into details, it would more than just slightly stray into WP:BEANS territory, but yes, it would be a good idea except for IP's, since CU's never link IP's with named accounts. KoshVorlon 15:44, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
KoshVorlon, for what feels like the thousandth time, please stop making comments about things you don't understand, as it only confuses other people reading your comments who don't know to disregard them. CU's never link IP's with named accounts is flat-out untrue, as a glance at Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of Kumioko (linked repeatedly in this thread) would have shown you. The relevant part of the CU policy is "Unless someone is violating policy with their actions (e.g. massive bot vandalism or spam) and revealing information about them is necessary to stop the disruption, it is a violation of the privacy policy to reveal their IP" (my emphasis); noting the IP ranges of known sockpuppeteers is fairly routine. What exactly did you think the {{IPsock}} template was for? ‑ iridescent 16:06, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There's a good reason for comprehensive cataloging of sockpuppets in the cases at WP:Long term abuse. It serves as an institutional memory rather than depending on the memories of individual editors who come and go. It also makes identifying new cases faster and easier as it establishes an evidence chain. In some of those cases, the checkuser data on the original and earlier sock accounts is usually stale and/or destroyed. However, as bad as it was at its height, I don't think Kumioko's disruption rises to the level found at LTA (yet).
Having said that, the quantity of socks he used made it difficult to verify some of the claims made in this discussion, e.g. that none of his socks had vandalised articles, when several clearly had or that none of his socks had lied about who they were, when at least two of them had. For example, neither User:ShmuckatellieJoe nor User:RingofSauron appear in an SPI or in Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of Kumioko, although the former does appear in this 2012 ANI report. The latter I found by chance. He was using it right up until it was checkuser blocked 6 weeks ago. Like ShmuckatellieJoe, RingofSauron also tried to pass himself off as a new user [10]. He edited undetected (but without vandalism) for 3 weeks, including !voting in one RfA and one RfC. So you pays yer money and you takes yer chance. By the way, I presume WTT was aware of that latest sock when the "comeback deal" was worked out? If not, well, not good. Voceditenore (talk) 16:23, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
And the block-evasion editing continues. See the "Immediate unblock needed" section of the current revision of WP:ANI — yesterday, I made a kind-of-emergency request for help because I'd unintentionally autoblocked the Wikiconference USA, and I wasn't clear how to lift the autoblock, so I made a request at WP:ANI saying "someone please fix this problem". Someone using a pair of IPs jumped in to insert comments about why I shouldn't lift the block, why the First Amendment to the US Constitution should influence our (un)blocking decisions, etc.; you'll note that the same person using the same IP jumped into the Kumioko situation to say why he shouldn't be blocked. Nobody else would add such a comment to his talk page. You can see the whole discussion in the collapsed box right here. Nyttend (talk) 03:42, 12 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Extended content
  • Keep blocked. Maybe Jimbo should learn a bit about what it feels like to have your first amendment rights taken away without due process. 166.170.45.93 (talk) 23:37, 10 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Ooh, edgy. Did you forget the First Amendment doesn't apply to private entities? clpo13(talk) 23:38, 10 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This is not a request for a block review; this is a request to fix a technical problem. Nyttend (talk) 23:42, 10 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The First Amendment can apply here, and whether or not it's a block review, it's a block that shouldn't be overturned. 166.171.121.70 (talk) 23:45, 10 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, dear. I hope you've left plenty of time to cram before your Constitutional Law final. Pruneyard arises under California's constitution, not the US Constitution (except secondarily). Good try, though, smartypants. EEng (talk) 00:01, 11 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If folks start spilling the beans in public when they promised confidentiality, how would anyone ever be able to trust them with this sort of information again? Lankiveil (speak to me) 05:38, 10 October 2015 (UTC).[reply]
I agree that if an admin has promised confidentiality, they shouldn't "spill the beans". However, it doesn't stop others who discover the socking from bringing an SPI if they think it's worthwhile. Even so, if a serial and highly disruptive socker is asking for a new start and unblocking, and is expecting everyone to take it on faith that they have no intention of ever socking again, I would have thought that he/she would want to make a clean breast of things. As of 6 weeks ago, RingofSauron/Reguyla vowed on being blocked: "I can create new accounts forever and I will continue to edit positively forever.". The attitude of unblock me or I'll just keep on socking is hardly indicative of "redemption", is it? I've seen nothing in Reguyla's voluminous comments above which indicates that he no longer has that attitude. Voceditenore (talk) 07:28, 10 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"People have stated I had multiple chances, but I have never been given a chance." That's from above. That is his attitude, and it always will be. He is right and we are wrong. Why is this such a difficult decision? Square peg, round hole. Does not fit! Doc talk 07:42, 10 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Arbitration Committee comment regarding community ban of Reguyla

The Arbitration Committee notes the community discussion above. If the proposal is enacted, an appeal from Reguyla will be heard by the whole Committee (not just the appeals sub-committee) without requiring prior appeals on-wiki (using the {{unblock}} template or otherwise) or to UTRS. If any appeal by Regulya is declined, they may not appeal again within 12 months, or any longer interval the Committee communicates to them. Any appeal should be sent by email to arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org. Thryduulf (talk) 00:25, 13 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thryduulf Does "will be heard" mean "will only be heard"? NE Ent 00:32, 13 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The Committee will not require a prior appeal on wiki or to UTRS. Whether an appeal to those venues is permitted is a matter for the community. Speaking personally, it is my understanding that if this proposed ban is enacted then they would not be permitted. Thryduulf (talk) 00:40, 13 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately that's not the case, per Wikipedia:Banning_policy#Appeals_and_discussions, "Bans imposed by the community may be appealed to the community," and a decision by AN community Oct 2015 cannot bind a future AN community. NE Ent 01:15, 13 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If this proposal is enacted, the conditions of this proposal will apply - i.e. appeal only to the arbitration committee. A future consensus at AN may altar the or remove the conditions of the ban, but the conditions imposed here would apply until that point. A community proposal for a community ban will not result in an arbitration committee block. Thryduulf (talk) 01:47, 13 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding the whole committee vs BASC, then yes the appeal will only be heard by the full committee; however in practical terms an appeal sent to BASC would just be passed to the whole committee internally and would not be rejected only for that reason. Thryduulf (talk) 00:44, 13 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This section is not intended for discussion, any comments that are not clarification requests or responses to clarification requests by an arbitrator may be removed. Thryduulf (talk) 01:47, 13 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Reguyla-Kumioko_community_ban&oldid=1137487389"