Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Yasmine Seale

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Editors found consensus that Seale meets WP:CREATIVE criterion #3 through multiple reviews of her work that contain non-trivial discussion of her role as translator. (non-admin closure) {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:55, 16 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yasmine Seale[edit]

[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

We have a translator here - but the role of translator is incredibly common and not inherently notable, even if the works in translation are. We have the claim that she is the first woman to translate The Arabian Nights but that's really cheese-paring - the first translation of that work we have into a Romance language was in the early C18th. In literature in general, we have WP:AUTHOR - "The person is regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by peers or successors or the person is known for originating a significant new concept, theory, or technique or the person has created or played a major role in co-creating a significant or well-known work or collective body of work. In addition, such work must have been the primary subject of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews and that's not demonstrated here. Arablit as a source is effectively a blog and although Martia Lynx Qualey is a respected writer on the subject of Arabic translation, I'd wonder whether the many references here to Arablit or Martia's work are sufficient to demonstrate notability to the bar set by the above guideline or to pass WP:GNG. This isn't an easy one, but I'd argue in balance that the subject - as a translator - fails notability. Alexandermcnabb (talk) 15:37, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Authors, Literature, and France. Alexandermcnabb (talk) 15:37, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Women, Syria, and United Kingdom. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 18:40, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hello! Firstly translators of this literary caliber are especially rare, actually, not "common," and there is a reason dozens and dozens of cultural institutions (universities, literary centers, leading newspapers and magazines, publishing houses, etc.) are working with, interviewing, and spotlighting Seale and her literary output. The first translation of the Nights was in the 18th century, yes perhaps, but people have been calling for better translations for decades (and centuries) given the historical importance of the text and the cultural politics that have always been embedded in amalgamating and translating it. In other words, "first translation" is not the only notable one, and Seale's translation is absolutely no small feat, and certainly not "common." Beyond this "single event," though, Seale is notable more broadly for other work and not just as translator for the Nights--when creating this article, I took into account the general notability guideline of reliable secondary sources and the clear evidence of significant coverage (beyond ArabLit Quarterly's website, references also included Harper's Magazine, London Review of Books, Columbia University, and World Literature Today, to be clear, and could have included more) and she passes the following tests for Notability of Creative Professionals: "The person is regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by peers or successors". She as a translator—not just her individual works—will be discussed for decades in the global field of Arabic literature and Arabic translation. Jackie.salzinger (talk) 06:09, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per WP:CREATIVE - multiple works have been the primary subject of multiple reviews and articles, e.g. The Annotated Arabian Nights: The Economist, The New Yorker, The Guardian; Aladdin: Kirkus, Publishers Weekly; On the Road: New York Review of Books; and there is an in-depth interview with secondary context in World Literature Today. Beccaynr (talk) 16:22, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment These are not her works, but works she has translated. As have many, many others. Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 16:25, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I was about to add this to my comment in the Aladdin section: The Guardian, and I think a source like this helps show how Seale is a notable translator, in addition to the other sources cited above that directly discuss her translations as independent works: "The French-Syrian translator Yasmine Seale is the first woman to translate the whole of One Thousand and One Nights from its French and Arabic sources, and the first to produce an Aladdin since researchers have cleared up the mystery of the much-loved tale’s origins." These works become her works because of her translation, which is an art form. Beccaynr (talk) 16:30, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

WaPo in 2019 also notes for Aladdin, i.e. "in Yasmine Seale’s excellent recent edition from Norton, the princess inherits the throne but “shares her power” with Aladdin", and in 2021, her version of Arabian Nights, i.e. "In general, Seale’s Englishing of “Alf Layla wa-Layla”— “The Thousand Nights and a Night” — redresses the 19th-century’s Orientalizing bent and occasional racism, while also reminding us that women, and not just Scheherazade, are at the heart of these wonderful stories." Beccaynr (talk) 16:42, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

For Arabian Nights, there is also Gulf News, e.g. "Through Seale’s sparkling, visually rich translation and Horta’s opulent annotations one is exposed to splendorous storytelling grounded in the culture from where it originated minus its ethnographic lens", and a review in The Wall Street Journal. Beccaynr (talk) 16:54, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Also, the specific language in WP:CREATIVE#3 is The person has created or played a major role in co-creating..., which the reviews help demonstrate she has done with her translations. Beccaynr (talk) 13:28, 16 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 20:47, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep — per Beccaynr. Best, Reading Beans (talk) 15:22, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per Jackie.salzinger & Beccaynr, and noting that literary translators are not actually all that common. Espresso Addict (talk) 23:41, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Strong keep - we can't state that the entire profession of translator is non-notable. Translation studies is a substantial academic discipline, and especially this kind of literary translation of classical works that require not only linguistic but also extensive historical and cultural knowledge is rare. There are a lot of reliable sources substantially discussing Seale's work. Lijil (talk) 08:42, 16 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per the consensus in this discussion, plus improvements to the article since nomination. Just wanted to point to an example of an ultra-notable literary translator, for anyone who may not be as familiar with the field: the late Gregory Rabassa, American literary translator most famous for translating the works of Gabriel García Márquez into English, whose craft is explained in this The New York Times article ("widely considered one of the foremost translators of any kind in the world"); The Guardian obituary (praised by Gabriel García Márquez "for rendering his novel in English as better than the original"); The Paris Review blog ("brought a new respect to the art of translation and new attention to translators"); it goes on and on. Cielquiparle (talk) 17:00, 16 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.