Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sonia Ben Ammar

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Consensus is that while the article could be significantly improved, that does not mean the subject isn't notable. RL0919 (talk) 12:36, 11 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sonia Ben Ammar[edit]

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Normally I find it annoying when IP users remove all the substance from an article for no reason without even attempting to contribute. But in this case, I just might have to agree with the notability tag. Ben Ammar is a too soon right now, both NMUSIC and NMODEL. The content that IP user removed had a promotional tone so they were right for that. Looking at her "career" she has really only done less than 10 jobs. Articles about her are typically teen gossip about her love life or inherited notability from her father. I know some of you may look at that Vogue thing about her graduating high school but let's look at the bigger picture. Trillfendi (talk) 00:07, 4 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fashion-related deletion discussions. IntoThinAir (talk) 00:23, 4 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Africa-related deletion discussions. J 947 ^{^{^(c)}}, at 01:07, 4 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of France-related deletion discussions. J 947 ^{^{^(c)}}, at 01:07, 4 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. J 947 ^{^{^(c)}}, at 01:10, 4 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. J 947 ^{^{^(c)}}, at 01:10, 4 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep WP:IDONTLIKEIT, but there is notability here, even if only in the form of puff pieces. NoCOBOL (talk) 08:49, 4 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@NoCOBOL: How do “I not like it” when I’ve followed her long enough to know that the notability tag is accurate right now, so it’s not mutually exclusive. Since when do puff pieces create notability when that’s a neutrality issue? Like I said, an IP user removed EVERYTHING related to her career because there were no sources for it and upon further review I agreed. All they left was the fact that she’s a film producer’s daughter and that she’s going to college. When I put that latter source there years ago I assumed it would remain in the personal life section. So if you can find actual reliable sources about her music career, please be my guest, but from what I see nothing has charted yet.Trillfendi (talk) 18:35, 4 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You misunderstand. I WP:IDON'TLIKEIT, but I also believe that despite it being vacuous pop culture it does hold sufficient notability to be included on this site. NoCOBOL (talk) 07:29, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Well, neithe here nor there, the article is 2 sentences, one about parents and one about high school and college attendance. So frankly I’m puzzled where the notability is here since everything remotely related to career was removed by an IP as I originally explained, for not having verifiability; and if my agreement with that is perceived as IDontlikeit then there’s nothing I can do about that I suppose.Trillfendi (talk) 08:00, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep as per NoCOBOL. Comparing this nomination by Trillfendi to her AfD nominations for Kätlin Aas, Florence Faivre, and Mary Grace (AfDs for women are on my watchlist) I see a pattern of dismissing clear evidence of that the person meets WP:N, evidence which should have prevented the AfD in the first place. HouseOfChange (talk) 18:07, 4 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@HouseOfChange: You do realize that me being a feminist means I treat women equally to men, not better or worse just because of our genitalia. And as a feminist, I am not adding sources titled “Brooklyn Beckham’s girlfriend.” So feel free to vote on Paul Pelosi and Tom MacDonald (rapper) too which I have currently proposed for deletion. When I propose deletion, I don’t think ONE source overrides the need of significant coverage, especially of an actual profile, or notability is not inherited. When I propose deletion it’s because there is a need to dig deeper into the sources. “Sonia Ben Ammar graduated high school and is going to college in the fall” is not notability in itself but it’s ironic because I was the one who added that source....Trillfendi (talk) 18:35, 4 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Trillfendi: Multiple in-depth articles in Vogue or other RS are evidence of notability--even when they discuss trivial matters like graduation or dating--WP:NNC. There are many people whose parents or boyfriends are much more famous than SBA's who don't get articles about them in Vogue. AfD is not cleanup, not a way to motivate others to "dig deeper into the sources." You need to use article templates rather than AfD for such situations. HouseOfChange (talk) 19:30, 4 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I tried to fix this article before PRODD and I certainly didn’t come here for cleanup. I already agreed with the notability template. When I say dig deeper I obviously mean extrapolation. From what I read in that Vogue, she’s a “new face” and in my view still a too soon. Not a career to make an article out of yet. In these articles usually a “so-and-so has done this, this and that” sentence in the lead, so without it mattering what the material, one could use it for another citation. In this one it’s Chanel and Miu Miu. But this is the career content that an IP user removed from the article:

“Since early childhood, Sonia studied dance, singing, piano and theater. She was only 8 years old when she voiced the role of Fairy in the movie Winx Club, and she never looked back. She continued her professional career by participating in several major television network “variety” shows. Sonia’s first live performance followed suit with an appearance in the opera Magdalena at the world renowned theatre de Chatelet (2010 ) in Paris, France. In 2013, she made her film debut playing Little Raphaëlle in the French Film, Jappeloup, which was a major box office success. Sonia successfully returned to the stage by landing the much sought after role of Charlotte, in the blockbuster French Musical, 1789: Les Amants de la Bastille, which went on to tour in some of the biggest arenas in France, Belgium and Switzerland from 2013 to 2014. A native English speaker, Sonia moved to Los Angeles in 2017 to study music at University of Southern California. She continued her musical career by performing at Coachella Music Festival with the famous French DJ Petit Biscuit and has embarked on her first solo album. Recently, she he has appeared in the music video of Calvin Harris and Sam Smith “Promises”. In 2016, Sonia signed with the prestigious IMG modeling agency and has starred in leading fashion campaigns and shows for Dolce & Gabbana, Miu Miu, Carolina Herrera, Top Shop, Nina Ricci and Chanel. She has also appeared in high profile magazines such as Vogue, Vanity Fair, Harper’s Bazar, Love, l’Officiel and Elle.”

Now take all the puffery, non-neutrality, and unencyclopedic writing from it, what’s in it is an unreleased album with no definite release date known and a modicum of modeling jobs with no citations for verification. So as this article stands in its current form, it’s a deletion. It’s only two sentences; one about who her parents are and the other about where she goes to college. And that’s just not notability.Trillfendi (talk) 22:20, 4 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep We can make up separate conditions or additional rules, but under Wikipedia guidelines this subject has significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources, meeting WP:GNG. HouseOfChange is right about WP:NNC: Notability guidelines do not apply to the content within an article, so the fact that much of the likely article content is about street style or Coachella or boys should not affect whether an article is retained. Bakazaka (talk) 03:08, 11 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Bakazaka: Once more, the article is just an “early life” section of 2 sentences. And a ::table with an album which at this point in time, is literally just an abstract idea with no release date yet. So what is this article even supposed to be about without content? Trillfendi (talk) 03:25, 11 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

An expandable stub/start class article with available sources, on the encyclopedia anyone can edit. Bakazaka (talk) 03:29, 11 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Bakazaka: The fact that anyone can edit Wikipedia is evidently what had messed the article up and got it to this point in the first place.... Trillfendi (talk) 03:37, 11 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I find comfort in WP:IMPERFECT. Bakazaka (talk) 03:59, 11 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Had that reckless person just left it the way it was before, the article would have had somewhere to go from there. Honestly, it would’ve been virtually almost unnoticeable that it wasn’t sourced. But here we are. What career can be found from a vacuum? Judging by the page’s history there weren’t reliable sources to begin with and no one’s tried to improve it. Trillfendi (talk) 04:41, 11 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I don't get this. There are four references which provide significant coverage in reliable, independent sources. No matter what the state of the article, she certainly meets WP:GNG, and anybody could use those sources and add more information to the article, without even searching for more. RebeccaGreen (talk) 12:16, 11 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.