Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sindhu Joy (2nd nomination)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Originally closed as delete, subsequent discussion has suggested this person might qualify under NPOL. There has been extensive discussion and still no consensus. Barkeep49 (talk) 18:22, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sindhu Joy[edit]

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Sindhu Joy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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Politician who was never elected as an MP or MLA. Just being the leader of some political party does not make anyone notable. Fails WP:GNG Kichu🐘 Discuss 05:20, 4 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. Kichu🐘 Discuss 05:20, 4 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Kichu🐘 Discuss 05:20, 4 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. Kichu🐘 Discuss 05:20, 4 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Kerala-related deletion discussions. Kichu🐘 Discuss 05:20, 4 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Satisfies criteria #6 and #9 of WP:POLITICIAN, specifically Member of Parliament(MP) elections from Ernakulam and there is sufficient coverage in WP:RS outside their local area of influence as can be seen in sources in the reference section. For notability any one criteria is required. Vikram Vincent 07:40, 4 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I found this link which seems to have a lot more references on the subject. Don't forget to ignore the YouTube videos and no RS links :-) Vikram Vincent 08:31, 4 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment:Vincentvikram, For your knowledge, this person had never been elected as a member of parilament. She lost to K. V. Thomas in 2009.[1]] The article also fails to establish the importance of the subject. Other than being the leader of a political party, I cannot find anything else. And regarding the sources you found out, it seems like just a case of WP:REFBOMB.Regards.Kichu🐘 Discuss 09:19, 4 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I was just searching for the page where I saw the criteria list so striking the numbers for the moment. Yes, I agree that the subject lost the elections but she did compete on the national level since MP elections are national level. However, I'll stick with the point on notability via multiple RS outside her local area of influence and let other editors draw their own conclusions. best! Vikram Vincent 09:25, 4 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Vincentvikram Thankyou for you valid contribution here. The point is, participating in the election does not alone make anyone notable by virtue of it. The sources presented here are mainly covering about the incidents or controversial events that she has been involved with. I could not find anything else that makes her pass WP:GNG. I still repeat, this might be a case of WP:REFBOMB. Kichu🐘 Discuss 09:30, 4 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Kashmorwiki Having struck out my above link, if we only consider the 11 references in the article, refbomb won't be valid anymore :-) Vikram Vincent 09:53, 4 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Vincentvikram, you may see this discussion [2] and have a look at the point given by user Bearcat. Almost similiar the situation in this case too. The fact is Bindu Krishna has more coverage than this person. Regards Kichu🐘 Discuss 10:02, 4 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand the point you are making Kashmorwiki. The article on Bindu has only two references. This has 11-1=10 references in RS. I think it is better other editors comment rather than a back and forth between us :-) best! Vikram Vincent 10:12, 4 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes only two sources are present in the article. But Im saying about the sources not given in the article. Anyway, like you said, let others decide. Regards. Kichu🐘 Discuss 11:02, 4 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
With the current 18 sources in the reference list, subject passes WP:GNG which is the basic guideline required for notability. WP:NPOL is applied only when notability is not found via GNG and these are specifically carved criteria. Vikram Vincent 09:24, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Even if we combine these 18 sources, it fails to give sigcov which is one of the primary factor needed for establishing notability thus failing WP:GNG. I would like to also mention WP:REFBOMB here.Kichu🐘 Need any help? 09:29, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure how a refbomb claim is relevant to 18 sources. Anyway a back and forth between you and me is not productive unless some new claims can be made else it just becomes walls of text. Best! Vikram Vincent 10:40, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per WP:BASIC and WP:NPOL, including because based on the sources that were in the article and sources I have added to the article, following her 2006 and 2009 candidacies, Joy continued to receive news coverage in 2011, 2012, 2014, and 2016 for various aspects of her political career. In addition, her career in television has been reported on, with reference to her role as a politician, as well as biographical information. Beccaynr (talk) 20:15, 4 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment fyi, the AfD template has recently been removed from this article twice, and there have been recent changes to the article made by several editors. Beccaynr (talk) 22:31, 8 March 2021 (UTC) Given what has happened to this article, I also ask that anyone assessing notability consider the sources that were available at this point: diff. Thank you, Beccaynr (talk) 23:25, 8 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • I reverted to last stable version and requested temp page protection. Vikram Vincent 06:21, 9 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak delete I don't see her meeting WP:NPOL having never been elected to a high position, and I don't see the depth-of-coverage required for WP:GNG. OhNoitsJamie Talk 01:49, 9 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep as per WP:GNG, the subject has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. --Drajay1976 (talk) 10:24, 9 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 08:39, 11 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: The person has been covered in reliable sources. So notable enough. -AppuduPappudu (talk) 18:34, 11 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep notable figure in Kerala politics for more than a decade, multi-year coverage in RS; passes the GNG.--Goldsztajn (talk) 01:57, 12 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep notabilty clear as per reasons above. Unclear why she is being nominated.Kaybeesquared (talk) 22:13, 13 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Comment [3] news sources are not enough to establish notability. The subject fails NPOL, WP:AUTHOR, and WP:NACADEMIC. It is common for news media to cover everything or every single event associated with politics. When it comes to "public speaker, writer, columnist, academician and social activist ", the subject again fails to satisfy relevant notability criteria.

Claims made in article are;

  1. "...is a politician" (unfortunately, she hasn't won any assembly or parliamentary election and "no representation to the federal, state/provincial offices")
  2. "...is a public speaker" (please compare this with Sandeep Maheshwari, Shiv Khera).
  3. "...is a writer" (no notable publications, awards or any major contribution).
  4. "...is an academician" (no research, no awards, hasn't made any contribution to scholarly society or association.
  5. "...is a social activist" (never participated in a notable movement)
  6. "...is a columnist" (no notable work).

Article says:

  1. "...was the All India Vice-President of Students' Federation of India and the president of SFI Kerala State committee for three years. She is the only woman to hold such a senior level position in the organisation."

Source says:

  1. "Sindhu Joy (Kerala), Sayandeep Mitra (West Bengal), P Biju (Kerala) and Nirmal Biswas (Tripura) were elected as the vice presidents."[4] At that time, the organisation had 4 vice-presidents at state-level, including the subject in question. She received news coverage when she resigned from the party, hence it appears routine coverage and a press release.[5]. TheBirdsShedTears (talk) 20:05, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
commentTheBirdsShedTears It might be good to verify the claims that you are making: The subject was a leader in the student movement in Kerala, which would make her an activist. Her primary notability comes from here and is supported by WP:RS. The statement She is the only woman to hold such a senior level position in the organisation is in respect to holding the position of SFI state president in Kerala since that is fiercely contested post. Vikram Vincent 07:26, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Vincentvikram, holding the position of state president of the youth wing of party irrespective of the way it was contested (you said fiercely contested) does not make anyone notable by our current policies. Kichu🐘 Need any help? 08:33, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Kashmorwiki in my above comment I have only contested the claim, never participated in a notable movement, which is factually false. I'm not reiterating my point regarding notability. But considering that a single State in India is bigger than some countries, some of the policies will have to reexamined. PS: I even !voted keep for Surendran on grounds of parity. Vikram Vincent 09:12, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Vincentvikram, I also questioned one of your claims right.? Your argument about being the leader of the youth wing of a party :) And in the case of Surendran, he is the head of the party itself and has recieved coverage from lot of sources (even though I dont agree with him getting enough sigcov). But here, Im afraid the subject has recieved any sigcov rather than trivial coverage. Kichu🐘 Need any help? 09:24, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Again, we are interpreting GNG slightly differently it seems and that is fine. I'm happy to agree to disagree :-) Vikram Vincent 10:43, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Vincentvikram, as i earlier mentioned, "...is a social activist" (never participated in a notable movement). Being a leader in the student non-notable movement doesn't satisfy notability. However, participating in a historical movement or such activities that has been a subject of discuss in multiple RS is notable. Please compare this to Ambujammal, Annai E. V. R. Nagammai or Ela Bhatt. You may refer to WP:BASIC for a comprehensive detail on notability. False claims with no regard of GEN, ANYBIO, or BASIC should be speedy deleted under A7. TheBirdsShedTears (talk) 14:18, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
TheBirdsShedTears The subject is a political activist and not a social activist. Also the people you have quoted are from a different time period and it would be inappropriate to compare incomparables. The activism in Kerala is unlike that in other parts of the India due to its historic development and hence if we were to compare it to contemporary student movements across the country then the impact of the Kerala student movement is at a higher level in terms of its impact on government policy and also the number of politicians it generates across the political spectrum. Having said that, the question is not whether the movement was notable but whether the subject is notable. Further, I don't think any of the seasoned editors here will put their head out for A7 as AFD is the best place. Vikram Vincent 15:17, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Vincentvikram, a political activist with no involvement/participation/engagement in any notable activity is a clear indication of A7. Article's current revision claims .... is a former politician which is questionable to pass NPOL. Would you explain "she is a former politician"?. She has never elected, appointed or otherwise selected to any office such as MLC, MLA, MP or equivalent. The subject's participation in election doesn't satisfy NPOL. However, if a presidential candidate or equivalent participates in election, they are presumed notable even they lost election. In general, i disagree with your claims. She is non-notable in my opinion. Would you please provide a few of articles here for comparison with the article in question? I tried but failed to find such articles on Wikipedia. TheBirdsShedTears (talk) 17:36, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
TheBirdsShedTears both of us have already expressed our opinions. If you want to try your luck with an A7 go ahead. Best! Vikram Vincent 17:40, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Vincentvikram, please provide a few of similar pages (at least one page) for comparison as i failed to find the same. TheBirdsShedTears (talk) 17:50, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
TheBirdsShedTears I made changes to the page to reflect the current status of the subject. We don't delete a page when a person dies or retires. Apart from routine maintenance, we just stop updating it once the coverage stops. I'm sorry but I don't have either the time or the interest in looking up examples. Vikram Vincent 18:00, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Vincentvikram, the fact is that we don't have such articles on English Wikipedia. Please don't take this personally as i am trying to make it clear that how Wikipedia works. I have also added a reference from The Hindu, however, i am still worried about its notability. TheBirdsShedTears (talk) 18:23, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per WP:POLOUTCOMES. Short of being a party chairperson, treasurer, or executive director, we have almost never kept an article on a party functionary that I can recall. General secretaries, youth leaders, rapporteurs, and the like are run of the mill. Zero evidence she passes WP:PROF or WP:AUTHOR as alleged. I found no social media following, zero articles from newspapers of record, and only a new scholarly articles that mention her. Bearian (talk) 15:45, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Seemplez {{ping}} me 09:16, 18 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • delete per WP:POLOUTCOMES, and per Bearian's arguement above. Further: a person doesnt fulfil WP:NPOL if they have high designation in party, but not elected. It is commonly accepted that if a politician fails NPOL, then they have to pass WP:GNG with high standards, as high ranking party members are bound to be mentioned in press but it doesnt make that significant coverage. The subject here fails standard GNG. —usernamekiran (talk) 22:39, 20 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Per WP:POLOUTCOMES, Local politicians whose office would not ordinarily be considered notable may still clear the bar if they have received national or international press coverage, beyond the scope of what would ordinarily be expected for their role, and this seems like an example of coverage beyond the scope of what would otherwise be expected:
Season of suspense and surprises in Kerala, The Indian Express, 2011

There seems to be no end to the suspense, surprises and heartburn in Kerala even after the campaign for the April 13 assembly polls moved to top gear with filing of nominations closing by the week-end.

Never before has Kerala witnessed such poll-eve shift of loyalties as last week with a fiery CPI(M) student leader crossing over to Congress [...] One striking image of the LDF campaign in 2006 was that of SFI leader Sindhu Joy leading a student agitation on crutches after she was injured, allegedly in a police lathicharge.

The LDF had projected her as the symbol of the UDF government's use of force to suppress students' stir against privatisation of the education sector and CPI(M) pitted her against Congress leader and then Chief Minister Oommen Chandy in the assembly polls. She also unsuccessfully contested the Ernakulam Lok Sabha seat in 2009 against Union Minister K V Thomas.

The 'poster girl' of CPI(M) sprang a surprise last week by quitting the party and joining the Congress. A national vice-president of CPI-M's student outfit SFI, Sindhu said she was deeply disappointed with CPI(M), whose bosses had 'neglected' her over the last several months. Her first act after deserting CPI(M) was to canvass support for Chandy in his pocket borough Puthupally, where she went hammer and tongs against him five years back.

Seeking to play down Sindu's switch over,CPI(M) dismissed her from the party the very moment she announced her decision to part ways with the Left and join the UDF campaign.

She is now in great demand by UDF contestants all over the state, who think that a young woman like Sindhu could defuse LDF's claim of being the passionate defenders of women's rights and privileges. "We will certainly make use of her services to the maximum. She is an energetic person, an eloquent speaker and it was out of conviction that she quit CPI (M) and joined Congress," a Congress leader from Kottayam said.

[...] Interestingly, after parting ways with CPI-M, Sindhu Joy also said she was a believer but she had refrained from going to church for prayers, fearing it would antagonise party bosses.

Beccaynr (talk) 18:14, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Strong delete – Note: I have already a "Delete" vote in my first participation.[6] the article was nominated for AfD on 4 March. Five days later i.e on 9 March, the subject wrote Any Wikipedia volunteers here?? on their official Facebook page[7]. A user "Ajay Balachandran" subsequently replies to the query I am a volunteer, what's the issue. The subject replies to the user's comment check your inbox, which makes me suspicious about article's AfD discussion. I think A major contributor (IP users) to this article appears to have a close connection with its subject. AfD tag was removed multiple times by IP users. This article is possibly a self promotional with undisclosed paid editing. TheBirdsShedTears (talk) 07:07, 23 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Per WP:LIKELYVIOLATION, Wikipedia has remedies in place to tackle its policy violation issues. Vandals, sock puppets, and edit warriors can be blocked. Articles can be protected. Sock puppets and canvassers can be traced, and issues such as page protection and the repeated removals of the AfD template have been addressed. Beccaynr (talk) 15:28, 24 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: I closed this as delete. There was clear consensus that NPOL is not met and because that was core to the delete argument I also accepted assertions about the GNG. On review (requested on my talk page) I see that we have not really gotten into the weeds of the GNG. The commentary is more or less assertion, so can we look at the sources and have an analysis and discussion of them here please and that this the final outstanding issue. Thanks.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz Humbug! 07:18, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Analysis While conceding that the subject does not satisfy WP:NPOL, to establish WP:GNG, WP:THREE independent reliable sources have been chosen that are fully focused on the subject. The remaining sources are either fully, partly or in-passing talking about the subject. In total they satisfy WP:BASIC. As pointed out by Beccaynr, the coverage has been over a several year period. Vikram Vincent 09:17, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sources evaluation table:
Source Evaluation
Banerjee, Ritabrata. "All India Conference of SFI calls for Consolidation and Expansion". Peoples Democracy. Simply states that subject was elected as an national level office bearer
"SFI office-bearers elected at meet". The Hindu. 13 November 2005. Subject elected as state secretary; focus on conference
http://eci.gov.in/archive/May2006/pollupd/ac/states/s11/Acnstcand92.htm Govt website; dead link; used to show candidate info
"AIDWA demands release of Kerala SFI president Sindhu Joy from prison". OneIndia. Based on a press release; demand for release of the subject post-arrest
"Season of suspense and surprises in Kerala". The Indian Express. Thiruvananthapuram. Primary focus is the subject
"Are SFI leaders contesting against Oommen Chandy dark horses or lost causes?". The News Minute. Brief mention of subject
Krishnakumar, P. K.; Sanandakumar, S. (25 March 2009). "It is experience Vs youth in Ernakulam". The Economic Times. 3/7 paragraphs on the subject
Sanandakumar, S (18 March 2014). "One thing's sure: The next Ernakulam MP will be Latin Catholic". Economic Times. Brief mention of the subject
"Sindhu Joy quits as Youth Commission chief". About the subject
Basheer, K. p m (3 April 2012). "Panel will focus on youth problems, says Sindhu Joy" – via www.thehindu.com. Statement by the subject
"Firebrand Kerala student leader Sindhu Joy quits CPI(M)". About the subject
"Sindhu Joy and Swaraj re-elected". The Hindu. Focus on the subject with brief mention of another subject
"Firebrand SFI leader Sindhu Joy quits CPI-M". Zee News. Press Trust of India. Article focuses on the subject
"VS in trouble for remark on ex-CPIM woman activist". Zee News. Press Trust of India. Article quotes many sources for statements related to the subject
"CPM becoming increasingly net savvy". Times of India. Brief mention of subject
Nair, C. Gouridasan (26 March 2011). "Desertions from CPI(M) show a pattern". The Hindu. Half the article is about the subject
"Sindhu Joy as News Anchor in Surya TV". OneIndia. Focused on the subject WP:THREE
Manayath, Nithin (19 August 2013). "Why We Keep Watching Malayalee House and Bigg Boss". Grist Media. Yahoo!News. Brief mention of subject
"Sindhu Joy, participant of Malayalee House, back to politics". Times of India. TNN. About subject
"A PHD after study and struggle". About the subject WP:THREE
"Kerala has a rush of qualified candidates". The Hindu. Brief mention of candidate
"Sindhu Joy weds businessman Santimon Jacob". RS; About the wedding of the subject WP:THREE
Claims made by editor(s) Source(s)/media claims Outcome Notability Link
Simply states that subject was elected as an national level office bearer P K Biju was elected as the new president while Ritabrata Banerjee was elected as the new general secretary. Sindhu Joy (Kerala), Sayandeep Mitra (West Bengal), P Biju (Kerala) and Nirmal Biswas (Tripura) were elected as the vice presidents It is not a national post. However, P K Biju and Ritabrata Banerjee were elected to the national posts. ☒N [8]
Subject elected as state secretary; focus on conference WP:SIGCOV says, Independent of the subject" excludes works produced by the article's subject or someone affiliated with it. For example, advertising, press releases, autobiographies, and the subject's website are not considered independent. and unfortunately, it doesn't talk about her birth date, education background etc. FSI secretary may be notable but its state secretary is a non-notable post ☒N [9]
Based on a press release; demand for release of the subject post-arrest checkY It appears notable event, however it is worth mentioning that her arrest is linked to a non-notable political activity. None of the civilians protested for her release. ☒N [10]
Primary focus is the subject It is focused on political war alongside the subject A political war between the parties doesn't satisfy notability. It decides her fate not notability. ☒N [11]
Brief mention of subject Do this talk about her education, birth date, birth place etc.? Contesting presidential election or for the post of prime minister is a notable event. A candidate's debut in Lok Sabha election doesn't satisfy WP:NPOL. ☒N [12]
3/7 paragraphs on the subject talks about political activities within the state alongside the subject Again states a political war between the candidates/parties ☒N [13]
Brief mention of the subject How is this a brief mention of the subject? It says, Sitting MP and Union Minister of State for Consumer Affairs, Food and Public Distribution KV Thomas is the Congress nominee for the April 10 election. In 2009, he defeated Sindhu Joy of the CPM by about 11,000 votes. False claim ☒N [14]
About the subject It again talks about her non-notable post State Youth Commission is a youth wing in Karela and appointment to such posts are notable. ☒N [15]
Statement by the subject We have a policy on Wikipedia called WP:NOT Statements are not sufficient to satisfy WP:GEN. Please see WP:ROUTINE ☒N [16]
About the subject Fail to satisfy GEN Resigning from one party and entering into new party is redundant in WP:GEN ☒N [17]
RS; About the wedding of the subject Again, it talks about her non-notable role/post and marriage. Doesn't satisfy WP:NPOL ☒N [18]
  • Comment This is unfortunate that we are confused between WP:SIGCOV and WP:NOT.

TheBirdsShedTears (talk) 11:01, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: An indentation leak has been fixed with the above table. ~ Aseleste (t, e | c, l) 11:42, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The second table again focuses on WP:NPOL which has already been conceded. The first table focuses on WP:BASIC which has been ignored. There are several fallacies and analytical problems with the second table. To state a few
Has linked to WP:GEN which expands to Wikipedia:WikiProject Molecular Biology/Genetics
In row two, brings in a quote from WP:SIGCOV which makes absolutely no sense to the context
Says arrest was a notable event but civilians did not protest
States Do this talk about her education, birth date, birth place etc.? Articles don't need to focus on age, education etc to show notability. A source is not discounted unless it is unreliable
Asks about education in one article, which does not talk about education, and ignores the other article dedicated to the phd qualification of the subject
Claims "State youth commission" is a "youth wing" while it is actually a government body(This is not to establish notability but to show coverage of the subject)
The state is Kerala and not "Karela"(bitter gourd vegetable)
In brief, the second table misses the forest for the tree Vikram Vincent 11:49, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment WP:SIGCOV can't be undermined when the subject fails to pass NPOL. Every listed source talks about her role at SFI, a youth wing formed by Communist Party of India (Marxist). Unfortunately, none of the sources gives impressions of SIGCOV. Her role as state secretary or president at the youth wing is a non-notable post for which the subject has received media coverages. Media coverage is also focused on her resignations, participation in election, political war and joining new parties, or organizations. All coverage is about the subject's non-notable roles and events.

TheBirdsShedTears (talk) 12:35, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

We use WP:NPOL only when WP:GNG ain't satisfied. The whole discussion of the first table was to show WP:BASIC and the second table fails at showing that BASIC is not satisfied(apart from introducing logical fallacies) Vikram Vincent 12:46, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
WP:BASIC said, People are presumed notable if they have received significant coverage in multiple published secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject. Here is an example of GEN, Independent and SIGCOV[19].The sources you presented doesn't satisfy GEN. TheBirdsShedTears (talk) 13:03, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You got the definition of BASIC right but you are giving an ideal example of a source which is not going to be the case. We have to work with sources like the ones we have to put together WP:SIGCOV. Also I still have no idea what this "GEN" you keep referring to is since it links to some page on genetics. Vikram Vincent 13:06, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I am not convinced since the subject's coverage is focused on the posts which are not notable. Wikipedia is not a SOAPBOX[20]. @Vincentvikra, we both have presented our opinions variously, but the fact is that this article fails to pass notability criteria such as SIGCOV. I requested you several times to present some similar articles here for comparison, but unfortunately you refused to do so. Almost every source says, "she is the leader of SFI", but we both know that she was appointed to this organization as a secretary or president for Kerala state not for the entire organisation. There are 36 union territories and states in India which means we have to create more 36 articles on Wikipedia for one organisation (SFI, a youth wing) for its state secretaries and presidents. The subject has also worked at other organisations which are also non-notable. Rest of sources discuss her personal political activities. TheBirdsShedTears (talk) 05:56, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
TheBirdsShedTears I have no idea why you are invoking WP:SOAPBOX because the context appears to be completely misplaced and that currently appears to be a pattern. BTW I am only looking at WP:BASIC which is a less stringent form of notability compared to WP:GNG or WP:SNG. If you can limit your points around BASIC it will be good. Your other points around WP:NPOL are already conceded and need not be repeated as they simply form WP:Walls of text. Thanks! Vikram Vincent 06:51, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
There is no indication that the subject pass WP:BASIC or WP:ANYBIO. The article claims Joy is a former politician. If you think that i should not refer to NPOL, it may be a good idea to remove the false claims made in article. She has not held any such posts per the claims and if you remove ...is a former politician from the lead, then subject will be referred to as Joy is an activist. To be more specific, she has not been engaged in any notable activism other than her resignations from party to party and contesting elections unsuccessfully. Regards TheBirdsShedTears (talk) 11:07, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I have also made a source assessment table for what I think are the most significant sources currently in the article, and I appreciate the opportunity to do so, including because her 2005 injury at a demonstration and her 2006 incarceration, particularly in the context of the in-depth coverage of her educational endeavors at the time, do seem to be more than typical WP:NPOL notability, because these events were unrelated to her political career, even though they became politicized in national politics. In the discussion below, she also appears to have remained relevant to politics long after her formal political positions and unsuccessful candidacies, and to have received in-depth coverage for her non-political career in television. I did not include all of the coverage of her television career (news anchor and reality television) in the table below, nor the marriage announcement that lists her first (which seems to suggest she was the more notable party in the marriage). The following sources appear to support WP:BASIC and WP:GNG notability:
Source assessment table:
Source Independent? Reliable? Significant coverage? Count source toward GNG?
2005 SFI office-bearers elected at meet, The Hindu Yes Yes value not understood Report on Joy elected president; includes her briefing of the media with secretary M. Swaraj; compare with trivial mentions of other officeholders at the end of the article. ? Unknown
2006 AIDWA demands release of Kerala SFI president Sindhu Joy from prison, OneIndia Yes Yes Yes Article is focused on Joy. Includes a statement from AIDWA President Subhashini Ali and General Secretary Sudha Sundararaman: "Sindhu Joy has been in the forefront of militant struggles against the privatisation of education that was a hallmark of Oomen Chandy's regime. She was the victim of a brutal police attack and is still unable to walk without the help of crutches, they said," which provides in-depth context to the report. ✔ Yes
2011 Season of suspense and surprises in Kerala, The Indian Express Yes Yes Yes The article is focused on Joy, and the description of Joy as the "'poster girl' of CPI(M)" provides context related to her past national -level notability, and includes an in-depth explanation, including "One striking image of the LDF campaign in 2006 was that of SFI leader Sindhu Joy leading a student agitation on crutches after she was injured, allegedly in a police lathicharge." The article also includes commentary from a Congress leader, i.e. "She is now in great demand by UDF contestants all over the state, who think that a young woman like Sindhu could defuse LDF's claim of being the passionate defenders of women's rights and privileges." ✔ Yes
2016 Are SFI leaders contesting against Oommen Chandy dark horses or lost causes?, The News Minute] Yes Yes Yes Per WP:GNG, Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, but it does not need to be the main topic of the source material, and this commentary offers substantial and in-depth information about Joy, in the context of how her history as a political candidate and political figure is relevant to politics in 2016. ✔ Yes
2009 It is experience Vs youth in Ernakulam , Economic Times Yes Yes value not understood Per WP:GNG, Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, but it does not need to be the main topic of the source material, and this article includes commentary on Joy's political background, including, " Sindhu Joy, who had led several agitations as a student leader, is not the type who will wilt under the heat of a contest. Despite her relative inexperience, Ms Joy exudes confidence and is ready to tackle head on the developmental issues faced by Ernakulam. Traffic and drinking water problems and re-settlement and rehabilitation of people left homeless by development projects are high in her list of priorities." and "she can take pride that she is a candidate to contest from Ernakulam in the CPM symbol after many years. " ? Unknown
2012 Sindhu Joy quits as Youth Commission chief, The New Indian Express Yes Yes Yes The article is focused on Joy, and includes background, e.g. "former SFI State president [...]who was rewarded with the post of chairperson of a newly-formed State Youth Commission by the UDF Government" and commentary, "Sindhu’s nomination as chairperson had ruffled many a feather in the faction- ridden Congress, with many Youth Congress leaders, especially women, making their displeasure known to party higher-ups." ✔ Yes
2012 Panel will focus on youth problems, says Sindhu Joy, The Hindu Yes Yes Yes The article is focused on Joy, and includes biographical, other background information, and commentary, e.g. "Ms. Joy, 34, who holds a post-doctoral degree (her PhD was in media and politics and the post-doctoral thesis was on empowerment of tribal women), is a former State president of the Student Federation of India and a former member of the Communist Party of India (Marxist)'s Thiruvananthapuram district committee. Just ahead of the April 2011 Assembly election, she had left the CPI(M) and joined the Congress, thus stirring up political ripples in the State. Considered an ' 'infant terrible' ' during her SFI days, Ms. Joy had contested the Puthuppally Assembly seat against Mr. Chandy in May 2006. [...]" ✔ Yes
2011 Firebrand SFI leader Sindhu Joy quits CPI-M, Press Trust of India/ZeeNews Yes Yes Yes The article is focused on Joy, and includes background information, e.g. "Sindhu, who was in the forefront of the agitation against UDF Government`s educational policies in 2005" [...] "During the 2006 polls, Sindhu had been projected by the LDF as a victim of "brute" handling of student stir against

opening up of education sector to private sector by the UDF Government," as well as commentary from political officials.

✔ Yes
2011 Desertions from CPI(M) show a pattern, The Hindu Yes Yes value not understood Per WP:GNG, Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, but it does not need to be the main topic of the source material, and this commentary includes background and detail about Joy's political career. ? Unknown
2013 Sindhu Joy as news anchor, OneIndia (Malayalam) Yes Yes Yes The article is focused on Joy, and includes in-depth coverage, e.g. her past political and television career, and her education background. ✔ Yes
2009 A PhD after study and struggle, The New Indian Express Yes Yes Yes This article focuses on Joy, including detail and context about her education, such as her injury during a 2005 protest, and "in 2006, when she was about to finalise the thesis, Sindhu was jailed by the police after slapping criminal charges on her with regard to a mass protest. She had to spend 24 days in jail before getting bail." Commentary includes, "The two election fights that had pole-vaulted her to stardom also happened during her research days." ✔ Yes
This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using {{source assess table}}.
Beccaynr (talk) 17:33, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep agree per Beccaynr, and plenty of significant coverage both included in the article and per search. WP:GNG and WP:BASIC are met. VocalIndia (talk) 05:44, 1 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Kieran207(talk-Contribs) 01:46, 7 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. Beccaynr (talk) 18:19, 7 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Beccaynr (talk) 18:19, 7 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. Beccaynr (talk) 18:19, 7 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Kerala-related deletion discussions. Beccaynr (talk) 18:19, 7 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I checked several of the references in Beccaynr's table and they are good. Excellent work Beccaynr. Easily passes WP:SIGCOV. scope_creepTalk 12:27, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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