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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. T. Canens (talk) 00:17, 3 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ryan Ayers

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Ryan Ayers (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Contested PROD, with that tag removed for what looks to be a case of crystal ball use. Ayers doesn't pass any of the applicable standards for his professional career, and is presently only an assistant coach, which doesn't seem to get him over the line in that regard either. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 23:43, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Regards, Krishna Chaitanya Velaga (talk • mail) 00:28, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Basketball-related deletion discussions. Regards, Krishna Chaitanya Velaga (talk • mail) 00:28, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ohio-related deletion discussions. Regards, Krishna Chaitanya Velaga (talk • mail) 00:28, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - I am not seeing independent, reliable sources that establish WP:GNG. Most sources I can find are short blurbs on being hired for various jobs (routine coverage not to the level of in depth profiles) or are published by non-independent sources (school websites, School fan sites, etc). Rikster2 (talk) 12:55, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - He played professionally at the highest level in Finland, however, that doesn't qualify under WP:NHOOPS. His other pro play was in the NBA D-League which also doesn't qualify under NHOOPS. References are almost non-existent in article. Those found in a BEFORE search are fleeting and incidental; what one would expect for an assistant coach at a D1 school; primarily in the form of mention in box scores and game recaps. Therefore, does not pass GNG either. No prejudice for recreation if / when he becomes a head coach. Chetsford (talk) 05:36, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep He played professionally in France [1], in Finland, and D League [2]. So yes he is notable for wikipedia, just like hundreds other players.--Bozalegenda (talk) 22:17, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

None of those meet WP:NBASKETBALL and even if they did there is a question as to if he meets WP:GNG. The sources have to be there. Rikster2 (talk) 22:22, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Then we should delete hundreds of others players. And that list on WP:NBASKETBALL is bullshit. Playing in some American ABA?! or Australian League can not be more important then playing in French LNB Pro A or German BBL. I mean did someone ever watched any game of American ABA League??? Ayers played at the highest level in France so he should have article on english wiki, just like there are articles about him on French, Italian and Finnish wiki.--Bozalegenda (talk) 22:33, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
OK I made a mistake, i was thinking about ABA league from 2000. But it doesnt matter, playing in France is more reliable then playing in Australia.--Bozalegenda (talk) 22:36, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that’s an opinion to have, but it doesn’t make Ayers meet any WP guideline. And I have tried to find legit sources to say he meets GNG but can’t. Rikster2 (talk) 22:44, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment In the absence of GNG, NHOOPS establishes the following criteria:
  • Have appeared in one game as either a player or head coach in ... (specific list of leagues follows, none of which Ayers played in)
  • Were selected in the first two rounds of the NBA draft. (Ayers was not selected in any round of the NBA draft)
  • Have won an award, or led the league in a major statistical category of the Continental Basketball Association or NBA G League. (no source establishes that this applies to Ayers)
Another set of criteria for amateur athletes can be found at WP:NCOLLATH; again, none of this applies to Ayers. Chetsford (talk) 23:04, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That list of leagues on WP:NBASKETBALL was probably made by someone who dont know anything about world basketball. Playing in French Pro A league is more reliable then playing in Australia or Israel. French league had two teams in Euroleague only couple years ago. Also, if Ayers is notable for three other wikipedia's then he also must be reliable for english wiki.--Bozalegenda (talk) 03:17, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
If the list (which, as I understand it, was created collaboratively among the participants at the relevant Wikiproject) features the number of problems you say, then you're welcome to take up the matter in the appropriate forum. At present, though, it's proved an eminently suitable statement of the consensus of a range of editors, which is what Wikipedia is founded on. Different language Wikipedias have their own standards of notability, by the way, which is a specialised case of this well-known argument to avoid in discussions like this. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 03:26, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Mate I am one of the most active editors here for world basketball, and no one consulted me about that list. So that explains how much is that list reliable, probably was made by some non basketball editors. There is no way that playing in Australia could be more reliable then playing in France. Every day i'm editing articles about some players who are not even close to be notable like Ryan Ayers. If you want to delete Ayers article then first delete LiAngelo Ball and LaMelo Ball. How could they have articles and Ryan Ayers not, that's nonsense.--Bozalegenda (talk) 13:41, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Bozalegenda - it is not true that you didn’t have the ability to have input on leagues being added to WP:NBASKETBALL. It’s true that no one posted anything on your personal Talk page, but the last major change was advertised at the Talk page of Wikipedia:WikiProject Basketball (see here). The truth is, you rarely engage in these consensus discussions, yet you complain about the results. Just so you know, there is a discussion underway about adding the Philippine Basketball Association to the guideline now at Wikipedia talk:Notability (sports)#Adding Philippine Basketball Association to WP:NBASKETBALL? - feel free to contribute. The issue with Ayers is that he doesn’t meet WP:GNG, which is the overriding guideline anyway (WP:NBASKETBALL is meant to show athletes who will probably meet GNG, not a replacement for it. As for the Ball brothers, they haven’t achieved anything but unfortunately they both absolutely have the sources to meet GNG - plenty of reliable, independent sources have discussed them at length. That is not the case with Ryan Ayers. Tell you what, if you can find the sources to prove he meets GNG I will change my !vote. They don’t have to be in English, but they would need to be independent, reliable sources that cover Ayers in some reasonable depth. Rikster2 (talk) 14:34, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The main thing here is that list of leagues on WP:NBASKETBALL is bullshit. Ryan Ayers even played in EuroCup [3] and after EuroLeague that is most important competition in Europe. I just dont get it how Australian League could be more reliable then EuroCup or French League??? Non basketball editors, and people who dont know anything about world basketball (people who are watching only NBA) are making this wikipedia ridiculous. And now you want to add league from Philippines before EuroCup, French or German League????? Nonsense. And there are plenty of sources for Ryan Ayers on web, but i dont want to waste my time to make this article looks better and to someone delete it.--Bozalegenda (talk) 03:17, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
If you feel that strongly about the list of leagues there, or the proposal which Rikster referred you to, then you're entirely free to contribute those strongly-held views to the relevant discussion/s. This isn't the relevant place to have that conversation, but you've been advised what the appopriate locations are. If, on the other hand, you want to rail against existing policies and guidelines, you're welcome to do that wherever you wish, with the caveat that it won't bring about the change you so fervently desire. To your point about the "plenty of sources" regarding Ayers - if sufficient sources are added to an article as to get the subject over GNG, it'll be kept. You will be achieving the result you claim to want to achieve if you do that. The choice is yours. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 04:01, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I added more sources, so i hope that now is everything ok.--Bozalegenda (talk) 15:24, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Not really, none of the sources that you added are from independent sources. One team site, one league site (they will announce their own transactions whether notable or not) and one short transactional press release from the Austin Spurs reprinted on a sports site. Rikster2 (talk) 19:51, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The Chicago Trib article came up earlier in this discussion - I really don’t see that as significant coverage, it is a short blurb about his hiring at a college in their local coverage area. The Goshen article probably qualifies as a significant piece, but one reference doesn’t really prove continuing coverage in my opinion. Rikster2 (talk) 21:25, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Rikster2: are you kidding me right now? Should we add a 100 sources so you could be happy??? You dont even know to add refs in articles, you are just doing some minor edits in infobox and that is not making this wiki better. Just realize man Ayers is reliable for wikipedia, there are plenty of sources on web about him. Just type his name on google and you will see. He played in EuroCup and that competition is about 20 times stronger then Australian League, he played also in French first division. So yes he is reliable whether you like it or not.--Bozalegenda (talk) 23:50, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Shut up, man. You won’t even engage in what leagues should be in WP:NBASKETBALL, you just want to complain about it. If you don’t like what I have to say then stick to the discussion and tell me why these sources demonstrate notability per Wikipedia guidelines? Since you added a bunch of league links (non-independent) I am guessing you don’t actually know. Non-independent sources are fine to establish facts, but not notability. Rikster2 (talk) 23:53, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
In article you have sources from ESPN, Chicago Tribune, Sportando, Eurocup... all this sources are valid in hundreds of other articles, and they were never deleted. So there is no need to delete this guy. On web you have sources about Ayers on French or Finnish language, reports from games. The easiest thing is to delete article, if you want to do something good for english wiki then add sources to article and everything will be ok. Off course if you know how to add a source.--Bozalegenda (talk) 00:47, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
First, you can stop with the insults, they aren’t constructive. Second, the question isn’t if Ayers can be found on the World Wide Web. The question is if there are significant sources that meet WP:IS and constitute “significant coverage” (that’s bolded at WP:GNG). The team, League and Eurocup pages are not independent. Game reports and short transactional announcements like the Chicago Tribune and sportando (sportando is literally a collection of one-sentence signing announcements) don’t constitute significant coverage in my mind. They may in your mind, but make that argument based on logic and facts not just “of course they are.” There can be disagreement on what constitutes significant coverage, that’s what these discussions are for. Also, yes, there are many poorly-sourced articles on WP. The difference is that this one was challenged through the AfD process so I, and anyone else, are just stating an opinion to help reach a decision. In my eyes, the only source that is both independent and rises to the level of a piece constituting “significant coverage” is the Goshen Times piece editorofthewiki added. To me, that one is longer in length and goes into more detail about Ayers as an individual than transaction blurbs do. But to me you can’t call one article “significant coverage.” If other sources meeting WP guidelines exist, let’s find them. French and Finnish language sources are fine, but they’d also need to be independent reliable sources - for example, newspaper articles or articles from independent magazines like Basket News. I don’t have any bias on this guy. I don’t care if the article stays or if it is deleted, I just gave my opinion. If all these sources are out there - ones that meet WP:IS and WP:RS, then show them and I am happy to change my !vote. In any case, an admin is going to have to sort through this to make a call since this isn’t unanimous either way and bringing forth sources that meet this criteria - and/or making an argument why you disagree that things like the ESPN blurb constitutes “significant coverage” - will help your case. Admins need to look at guideline- and fact-based arguments, they aren’t just counting votes. Rikster2 (talk) 01:23, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 08:50, 26 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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