Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Randy Burns (producer)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. There is a consensus that the sources presented do not demonstrate notability. Barkeep49 (talk) 02:14, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Randy Burns (producer)

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Randy Burns (producer) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Fails WP:GNG and WP:CREATIVE. I have some sympathy here: the subject has been involved as producer for several key albums in the thrash metal genre, and it may well be that more coverage of him exists in print versions of hard rock/metal magazines. But right now, the only real source in this article is the Guitar World article, and much of it is Burns himself talking about the albums he's produced. The Classic Rock article mentions him once in passing as the album's producer, and the Rolling Stone article doesn't mention him at all. A search doesn't turn up anything much better online (most of it talks about the 1960s folk singer of the same name)... there's a few mentions in books, but again, passing mentions as the producer of an album, no real biographical detail [1], [2]. Richard3120 (talk) 19:53, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. Richard3120 (talk) 19:53, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

• Comment Keep - There's also an LA Weekly article. Metal: The Definitive Guide called him a "leading thrash knob-twiddler." Agree with Richard3120 that a lot may be in 1980s and '90s print material. Caro7200 (talk) 20:10, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Again, that LA Weekly article doesn't really go beyond "he produced this album", sadly. Richard3120 (talk) 20:17, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Well, the same article states: "Burns engineered the first Suicidal Tendencies album, and he also produced Possessed’s Seven Churches, Death’s Scream Bloody Gore and many other metal and punk masterpieces. Burns would later call Peace Sells the best album he’d ever produced, and said he’d never worked with anyone as driven as Mustaine. 'Randy was a nice guy, fun to work with,' Mustaine says. 'He lent a punk edge to the production.'"

Burns is also talked about in the Flaming Lips book. Caro7200 (talk) 20:53, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

I know, I linked the Flaming Lips book above. It just seems a list of "he produced this album, and this album, and this one" so far... maybe other editors will feel that's enough to be notable, I don't know. I'd like to see something more about him and not his production credits, though. Richard3120 (talk) 21:58, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Ah, so you did, sorry. I'm guessing he's written about in the Dave Mustaine and David Ellefson autobiographies, although I don't have digital access to them. There is another brief mention in the Los Angeles Times, which describes him as someone with the ability to "influence" the creative decisions of other creative people. Caro7200 (talk) 12:40, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

• Comment He is talked about in both of David Ellefson's books (which is an accepted citation ALL over Wikipedia for Megadeth, and Peace Sells related articles) , Another instance of that quote from Megadeth.com Dave Mustaine's book, the Top 500 Heavy Metal albums of all time by Martin Popoff , Plenty of other articles such as these , another about the making of SCREAM BLOODY GORE from DECIBEL, which discusses his work with both DEATH and POSSESSED. There are tons of sources. There is also no questionable or subjective biographical material in this article. Purely discussion of his body of work, directly attributed to the industry-standard sources included, of which there are many more, which is 100% relevant to scholarly research on the topic. Guitar World is a leading authority print publication for over 30 years, and yes, his entire body of work is mostly defined within that one article, which is about the GREATEST METAL PRODUCERS OF ALL TIME, and, suggesting, if not verifying, that he produced some of the most iconic and influential Metal recordings of all time. So no, I did not seek out multiple sources to confirm basically that he produced the records he did, that is fairly common knowledge.

Here is also a 1989 article from the LA TIMES "Listen to Excel, and you’ll hear the influence of thrash producer Randy Burns (Megadeth, Nuclear Assault). He produced both “Split Image” and Excel’s second album, “The Joke’s on You,” to be released April 21." And another from LA WEEKLY 1986: THE YEAR THRASH METAL EXPLODED, THANKS TO THREE NOW-CLASSIC ALBUMS You say the citations, "only mention in passing he produced the album". Yes, and the WIKIPEDIA article created doesn't really go beyond "he produced that album", aside for a few specific details about the recordings, that are all specifically cited, and are all in line with the citations. He is a record producer, who retired in 1991. Most articles and mentions WILL just be "he produced that album". It doesn't change the fact that he did, or make it any less relevant. That said, the relevance of a record producer, is IN their BODY OF WORK.

So i'm not clear if you're saying that the citations are not enough to support the fact that he produced the records discussed in the article, which intentionally contains no uncited biographical material, or that somehow the content makes the article irrelevant. Either way, in my opinion, and based on my understanding, there is absolutely no reason for this page to be suggested for deletion, and I feel it actually fully goes against guidelines for recommending deletion. Suggesting an article for deletion, based on your personal assessment that a celebrated, genre-defining record producer, who produced over 60 records, at least 1/3 of which are considered among the greatest and most influential albums of all time, across multiple genres of music, including Peace Sells But Who's Buying, considered to be, overall, one of the most influential albums of all time, is not notable, seems a bit of a stretch to me. Especially when literally every line in the article is cited with a direct citation to a mainstream publication. If you know the influence within the Metal canon of Peace Sells, or the first Suicidal Tendencies album, or Seven Churches and Scream Bloody Gore, all recognized as defining moments in Metal history, you understand the importance of Randy Burns. I could question the relevance of thousands of entries on Wikipedia, if I do not have the knowledge or understanding of what makes that article, or individual, relevant.

If you'd like to suggest more citations, I can exhaustively cite 50 instances confirming he produced the records that the article says he does. But as 80% of the pages I look at (even for other less notable, but comparable, producers) have zero citations, paragraph after paragraph of unsubstantiated or fully uncited claims or suggestions, yet they remain fully intact, I didn't feel it was necessary to confirm over and over with citations what is fairly common knowledge among followers of the genre. Also there are plenty of comparable, but less relevant, or successful, producers, with LESS or NO citations.

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Burns_(record_producer) - Literally NO citations, except two website interviews WITH Scott.
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Whitaker_(record_producer) - Produced ONE Thrash album. One paragraph, and no citations for anything, other than one link to some random "metal" site.

Maybe the energy would be better spent suggesting ways to improve the page, or improving those pages, or if there is going to be a standard, it should probably be enforced universally. If this page is deleted, these should certainly be deleted.--Allisterfiend666 (talk) 19:00, 12 May 2020 (UTC) — Note to closing admin: Allisterfiend666 (talk • contribs) is the creator of the page that is the subject of this AfD.

References

Hi Allister, thanks for replying. Firstly, the fact that there are other unsourced articles on Wikipedia has no bearing on this discussion – that argument is WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, and is more an argument for the deletion of those articles than keeping this one. Secondly, if those albums are important and influential (and I totally agree that Peace Sells... fits this description) does not mean that the producer is necessarily important or influential... a person doesn't get to be automatically notable just by association (WP:INHERITED), you have to show that they are individually notable. I don't doubt that he produced all the records in the list – that can easily be confirmed by looking at the credits of the record sleeves. I'm asking for citations that state that Burns is influential. For example, the Blabbermouth article isn't very useful because again it's just a statement that he produced an album, but in fairness you and Caro7200 have some up with a couple of sources that do hint that he is recognised as notable. I was trying to suggest improvements to this page – I don't have access to any material at the moment that would allow me to improve it, so if you have books, magazines or newspaper articles that would do so, by all means add them. Richard3120 (talk) 19:22, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Noted. Thanks Richard. And I appreciate the discussion. But, with all due respect, you clearly don't understand the importance and impact of the rest of his body of work beyond the mainstream of Peace Sells (And I don't even think you understand the full impact of that), POSSESSED SEVEN CHURCHES and DEATH'S SCREAM BLOODY GORE, which are universally acknowledged as the 2 FIRST Death Metal releases, were defined by the sound of Randy Burns (literally BOOKS have been written about this - CHOOSE DEATH by Albert Mudrian), or the first Suicidal Tendencies Record, not to mention Nuclear Assault, Kreator, The Flaming Lips, Dark Angel, and the list goes on. And that's why it was brought up as two separate topics, to clarify whether you were suggesting deletion for a lack of citations, or the content not being "notable". My understanding of the purpose of Wikipedia, is people who are well versed in their individual areas of expertise, collaborating to make an inclusive, accurate reference work. I'm sure you are a wonderful, knowledgeable editor, but clearly, if you don't understand the influence and importance of the Randy Burns catalog, his impact on that catalog, and that catalog's impact on both individual genres, and music, and even pop culture, as a whole, I don't see where you deem yourself enough of an authority on the Metal Genre, or that catalog, to be judge, jury, or executioner, on a topic of this nature.

And when it is comparable producers in the SAME genre of music, I feel like it is absolutely relevant to the discussion, as there is clearly a standard set by the community, and the page I created met and exceeded those standards, both in notability, content, and quality and level of citation. If those producers are fit to be on wikipedia for their influence on the genre, which the community has clearly already deemed worthy, and Randy is clearly more influential within an essentially identical sphere of influence, it is absolutely a relevant topic to the discussion. Allisterfiend666 (talk) 19:49, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

• Delete a non-notable record producer.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:12, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
• Delete fails GNG per trivial mentions. The records and acts may be notable, but being a participant on said notable elements does not innately convey notability. If there's a huge impact of these albums, that's great, but that doesn't speak to Burns' importance. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 22:59, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
• Delete Per the nom. Fails WP:GNG. That stuff he touched in some way has some notability does not make him notable. The coverage of him as an individual is almost non-existent, demonstrating a complete lack of notability. Newshunter12 (talk) 02:59, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
• Delete - I think the consensus is that producers are run of the mill, and absent very clear notability with significant coverage, they are not automatically included per WP:NBAND. The consensus does not seem likely to change. Bearian (talk) 19:42, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.