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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep per clear precedent and WP:SNOW. NawlinWiki 15:36, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Paul Macari[edit]

Paul Macari (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

Notability is non-transferable. The only claim of notability is "...for being the son of Lou Macari." –Animum 00:31, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep The article clearly shows that he played a few games for league teams, including Stoke City and Huddersfield Town. This makes him notable in his own right. Nick mallory 01:28, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Even though he has played some games, without his dad, would that make him notable? Delete per WP:NOTINHERITED, notability is not inherited. --Nenyedi TalkDeeds@ 02:14, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete playing with his dad does not make him notable, notability is not inherited. Oysterguitarist 03:12, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

*Delete at 30 years old without any major exposure in the professional leagues or even junior representative status at international level he is not notable enough for a dedicated article. If he has other records - eg. disciplinary - or has scored notable goals then interested editors should find them and list them. He may go on to greater things as a manager so there is always the possibility for resurrection down the line.Dick G 03:50, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete a subject fails our notability standards if they arre only notabel for being related to someone. That is the exact case at hand. Sasha Callahan 04:20, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment My point is that the article says he HAS played in professional leagues. Stoke City and Hudderfield play in the English Football League and by wikipedia policy and precedent, which the preceeding commentors seem unfamiliar with, this makes him notable regardless of who his father is. He doesn't need 'major' exposure or to have played at international level. One appearance in a fully professional league is enough. Nick mallory 04:23, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

:::Comment If there's an established policy on this, let's see the relevant WP guidelines on every English pro footballers having their own article. Precedent doesn't of itself green-light an article's inclusion. See WP:OTHERSTUFF Dick G 04:31, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Here is the policy that states that any player who has played professional football is notable ChrisTheDude 07:16, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The player in question played on a second teer team (minor league for my fellow Americans). Here an American minor league baseball players article was deleted. So by the precedent established, this needs to go too. Sasha Callahan 04:33, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry but you are all quite wrong. English league players are notable, just as all first class cricketers are notable. The Championship or League One and Two are not the equivalent of baseball minor league players. Nick mallory 04:51, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If we're invoking American comparisons, then Macari's case seems on a par with that of Mel Stottlemyre, Jr. He played at a professional level but his career seems to have been comparatively insignificant and he seems much better known for his family connections - do the American editors above think he should be deleted? ChrisTheDude 07:42, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The Championship a "minor league"? I advise you do some research, as it has the fourth highest attended football league in the world. Dave101→talk  08:53, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The article on the team he plays for states its a tier two team, and not in the Premier League. Therefore, he didn't play at the top level of of competition. Mel Jr, played with Kansas City of the American League. The precedent has been established where American Baseball player who do not play at the top level of competition generally do not recieve their own articles (unless they are touted prospects). Soccer players who do not play at the top level (A Tier One League) shouldn't get articles either. Sasha Callahan 11:41, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
In that case what you are requesting is a major change to the WP:Notability (people) guideline. The guideline currently states that athletes have to have played in a "fully professional league", and the top four levels of the English football league system are all fully professional, therefore Paul Macari satsifies that guideline easily. If you feel the guideline needs to be changed, then that should be taken up at a much higher level than a single AfD.... ChrisTheDude 11:44, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Okay I see your point. Sasha Callahan 11:54, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - From WP:Notability (people) in reference to athletes. Competitors who have played in a fully professional league, or a competition of equivalent standing in a non-league sport such as swimming or tennis. The subject of the article played for Huddersfield which was (and still is) part of a fully-professional league. --Scottmsg 04:52, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of football (soccer) related deletions. Scottmsg 04:52, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

:Comment Nick and Scottmsg, I hate throwing WP guidelines in people's faces but the above professional league criteria WP:Notability (people) is not referenced in the more specific WP:FOOTBALL. Given the numbers of existing and former professionals, we are talking about (several thousand). You can't use that argument that each English league player is notable and/or warrants their own article. WP Guidelines frequently conflict and most importantly (1) WP is not an almanac and (2) this information is easily found on any number of player directories - it is not notable or distinct. Finally, If David Seaman is an example of a Mid Importance article then how is Paul Macari worth an article? Dick G 05:01, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

He'd have a 'low' importance article. It doesn't mean he's not worth an article at all. Wikipedia is not paper, so it doesn't matter how many articles there are and the WP:Notability (people) guideline takes precedence over anything an individual project comes up with. You will of course find that the WP:FOOTBALL project agrees with the wider notability standard, it's not in conflict with it. This issue has been debated many times before and you seem almost willfully ignorant of the standards which everyone else has long agreed to. Paul Macari is clearly notable because he played in the English Football League. Feel free to put up other English league players for deletion if you think this is wrong or that the community agrees with your position rather than mine and Scottmsg's. Nick mallory 05:06, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

:::Trust me I am not trying to reinvent the wheel but I think it's worth adding a dissenting voice in AfDs, particularly where a 'keep' or 'delete' decision is made on the basis of a long-standing practice that has not recently been challenged. The criteria for deletion must be dynamic - particulary where the cited guidelines frequently butt heads. I am not about to trawl the thousands of entries on footballers just to make a point but you have to admit, as a general reference work, we lose a bit of credibility listing every single player ever to trot out in a professional league match since the 19th century, regardless of their individual impact or achievement. Dick G 05:15, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No. This is an encyclopedia, which means we lose credibility when we don't have an article on a notable person or thing. I agree that criteria should be open and subject to criticism and change but this is just a waste of everyone's time. Every time your argument is refuted you simply post another, even weaker, argument for deletion. Arguing that because his information could be found elsewhere, it should be deleted here is ludicrous, for instance, as all the information on wikipeida has to be drawn from third party sources and not be original research. The criteria for inclusion are not 'butting heads' here. This person doesn't need to meet all the criteria, just one of them. He's played in a fully professional league, he's notable, that's the end of it. Nick mallory 06:05, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
So the WP:Notability (people) guideline doesn't apply anymore? When was this decision made exactly? Once again, 'Competitors who have played in a fully professional league' are notable. Nick mallory 06:56, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep As clearly meets WP:Notability (people), which states that athletes who have competed in a fully professional league pass notability guidelines. I can't see what the argument is, frankly. Most of the delete !voters seem to be suggesting that the notability policy should be disregarded in this instance, or wholesale amended, which is surely a discussion which should take place at a much higher level than this AfD. And in addition, suggesting that Huddersfield Town is equivalent to a US "minor league" team is ludicrous. Huddersfield have admittedly fallen on hard times in recent years but in the past they won what is now the Premier League championship on three occasions, so it's the equivalent of suggesting that the Chicago Cubs should be considered to be a minor league team on the grounds that they haven't won the World Series since 1908 ChrisTheDude 07:09, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • And as stated above, Huddersfield still play in a fully professional league, therefore any player who has played first-team football for them satisfies the requirements of WP:Notability (people), in exactly the same way that any player who has played foe the Chicago Cubs does ChrisTheDude 07:16, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - sportsman who had played in a professional league, therefore meets WP:BIO. — Gasheadsteve Talk to me 07:38, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per enormous precedent. FL appearances make him notable. ArtVandelay13 07:54, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep and note my previous input struck-through on basis that professional sportsman guidelines exist in WP:Notability (people) (notwithstanding such guidelines are a fluid concept).Dick G 08:05, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Per WP:BIO. Has played in a fully-professional league. Number 57 08:10, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy keep played for Stoke and Huddersfield, therefore easily passes WP:BIO. Dave101→talk  08:47, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, notability is blatant. In addition he happens to be the son of someone famous, but that's not the claim of notability here. Punkmorten 09:16, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, has played for Stoke and Huddersfield in a fully professional league. To delete on the misguided notion that what Stoke and Huddersfield play in is a "minor league" would be a precedent which would cause the deletion of many articles, some of them very well developed. Robotforaday 12:01, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd hazard a guess it could theoretically lead to the deletion of at least 2,000 articles including at least two GAs..... ChrisTheDude 12:09, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy keep it would be nice of nominators would know the notability guidelines before putting articles like this up for deletion. Mattythewhite 12:12, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep and Close per comments already mentioned. Davnel03 13:58, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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