Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pahari language

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. It's likely some merge is necessary, and that can continue to be discussed on the talk page. (non-admin closure) power~enwiki (π, ν) 05:31, 3 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Pahari language[edit]

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Too confusing to have this article and Pahari languages. Ambiguity around the term Pahari should be discussed at the main article. Batternut (talk) 13:41, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Language-related deletion discussions. The Mighty Glen (talk) 14:03, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Disambiguations-related deletion discussions. The Mighty Glen (talk) 14:03, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. The Mighty Glen (talk) 14:03, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Nepal-related deletion discussions. The Mighty Glen (talk) 14:03, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Merge with Pahari languages - this is relevant information but should be incorporated into the main article. --Nerd1a4i (talk) 16:37, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure I see the point of the nominator. Could they care to elaborate? Though we should probably make sure we're on the same page first? The proposed target – Pahari languages as it is currently titled though it ought to be renamed to Northern Indo-Aryan languages – is about a hypothetical subgroup of the Indo-Aryan languages. The page currently nominated for deletion on the other hand is a disambiguation page (or a WP:BCA if you prefer). Why should a disambiguation page be merged into one of the articles that it disambiguates? There are too many entries to fit into a hatnote and there isn't a primary topic anyway. Though the hypothetical group is probably the primary topic for "Pahari languages" (plural), "Pahari language" (singular) most commonly refers to either the Pahari language of Pakistan (not a member of the group), or to one or another of the Western Pahari languages. – Uanfala (talk) 20:22, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:PLURALPT the plural should redirect to its singular, or (rarely) the singular should redirect to the plural. As Uanfala has just had Pahari languages moved to Northern Indo-Aryan languages (good move!), that issue is largely dealt with. But we still have a bit of a mess: Pahari language and Pahari languages should produce the same page. Pahari languages should either redirect to Pahari language, or they both redirect to the disambiguation page at Pahari. Thus this page should be merged into Pahari#languages, which would then be structured as the Indian dba. Batternut (talk) 16:24, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

But the plural and the singular have different meanings here (see second paragraph of WP:PLURALPT) – Uanfala (talk) 16:31, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I doubt the distinction in usage is sufficiently significant or reliable - both singular and plural need disambiguating. Batternut (talk) 16:41, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The plural is obviously never used to refer to any of the individual languages, and the only overlap between the two is in the singular's use in phrases like "a Pahari language". – Uanfala (talk) 16:45, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

FYI, I have raised a discussion upon the target of Pahari languages at RfD. Batternut (talk) 23:17, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. This is a disambiguation page, on which Pahari languages is only one of the entries. Narky Blert (talk) 12:31, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Narky Blert: nope, it's not a disambiguation page; that's Pahri language, I believe. (That's part of the problem here; there's a lot of similar pages.) --Nerd1a4i (talk) 22:49, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Nerd1a4i: Ugh. This is a mess. Pahri language should not be a DAB page – it contains one redirect, and one WP:SEEALSO. It fails WP:TWODABS by some margin, and as such is ripe for deletion.

It looks to me as if there ought to be a single DAB page somewhere, which all these ambiguous links funnel into. I have no strong feelings as to whether it should be Pahri language or Pahari language or some other name. The only thing that matters is, that our readers can find what they want. Narky Blert (talk) 23:34, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I created Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pahri language PRehse (talk) 15:43, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Some sort of cross-link also needs to be made to the DAB page Pahari at the end of this discussion. Narky Blert (talk) 23:49, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Pahari already links here. I'm not sure I see the point of having a link in the opposite direction. – Uanfala (talk) 23:55, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't say what type of link. My basic point is, that at the moment Pahari language, Pahari languages and Pahri language are a hopelessly unnavigable jumble. Sort those pages down to one DAB page with the usual branches, and a link to Pahari (disambiguation) would be an everyday WP:PTM and a WP:SEEALSO. Narky Blert (talk) 00:50, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That makes more sense (though I still wouldn't add such a link myself, I wouldn't object if others do). As for the "unnavigable jumble", Pahari languages is now a redirect to its only possible topic (there still is a hatnote for those who arrive there by error), and Pahri language already links back here (though it does so only as a matter of courtesy to its long history as a misspelling redirect to Pahari language; ideally, it ought to redirect to Newari). – Uanfala (talk) 01:12, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per discussion above (in case it hasn't become patently clear). – Uanfala (talk) 15:20, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Merge with the Pahari dab, which points here. WP:DOUBLEDAB (double disambiguation) is rare, and I see no justification for it here. Most mentions of and searches for the language(s) are just "Pahari", so Pahari should work the same as Chinese or Creole, unless it can be successfully turned into a WP:BCA. However, as Northern Indo-Aryan languages covers most of these languages, the only scope for a BCA would be to compare distantly (eg Pothwari) and unrelated languages (eg Newar), typically labelled Pahari (hill-people language) as an exonym. Batternut (talk) 10:47, 27 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Double disambiguation is pretty common for languages, see Wikipedia talk:Disambiguation/Archive 45#Languages and incomplete disambiguation. If this page were merged into Pahari as it is, the result will be absolutely confusing for readers. And I don't see how it can be shoehorned into the format of a disambiguation page without compromising the information content. And btw, I don't see how this is relevant, but for the "Pothwari" and Newari varities listed here, "Pahari" is not an exonym. – Uanfala (talk) 22:06, 27 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  - Interesting discussion, though the only contributor that reckoned Double disambiguation is pretty common for languages was actually you yourself!

Interesting also for the view there that the test is whether a language is referred to as simply "X" rather than "X language". If they are known as simply "X", they belong on the X disambiguation page. In this case, "Pahari" (in a language context) is more common than "Pahari language". Batternut (talk) 00:48, 28 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If we want to be faithful to the view of the editors you refer to, it's not a question of which is more common, but whether phrases like "X language" are used at all. There was disagreement about the extent to which separate dab pages were well established, but there was no disagreement about them being common in the case of languages. – Uanfala (talk) 01:05, 28 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I wonder what folks here would think about turning Pahari language into a WP:Set Index Article, discussed at Talk:Pahari language#Disambiguation page or Set Index? @Narky Blert, Nerd1a4i, and PRehse: pinging those not known aware of the suggestion. Batternut (talk) 13:19, 1 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I've commented on that Talk Page, to avoid WP:CONTENTFORKing this discussion. Narky Blert (talk) 13:33, 1 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.