Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nothing about Ukraine without Ukraine

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus‎. With respect to this AfD, there is no consensus. With respect to the WP:RUSUKR editing restriction, it allows but does not mandate deletion to enforce it, leaving this up to administrators. I decline to delete the article in application of this sanction at this time, since the article does not appear to have been created with disruptive purpose or effect. Other admins remain free to come to a different conclusion. Sandstein 14:52, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing about Ukraine without Ukraine[edit]

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Fails GNG and WP:WORDISSUBJECT. This slogan, which is only notable because Joe Biden said it twice in 2022, does not have enough in-depth coverage in independent reliable sources to merit its own article. Not every sentence uttered by an American president that gets some attention in the media deserves an article of its own. At best we could merge this to Joe_Biden#Aid_to_Ukraine. SparklyNights (t) 21:45, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: News media, Politics, Russia, Ukraine, and United States of America. SparklyNights (t) 21:45, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom. It is not a notable slogan. I found hits on Biden's speech as a whole, but they do not take this slogan out of context without regards to the rest of the speech. It bears no weight on the aid to Ukraine section either as I feel this one saying about specific foreign policy does not garner enough WP:SIGCOV. If it were a continuing slogan, I could understand. Conyo14 (talk) 22:21, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Dear colleague, this statement is a continuing slogan, which can be traced through the sources in the article from at least January 2022 to November 4, 2023 Gornos (talk) 23:13, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Colleagues. This statement is not randomly dropped words. This is the official position of the United States and all NATO countries. To support this, I added links in the article to the words of Olaf Scholz and Jens Stoltenberg. Gornos (talk) 23:07, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A procedural note: the author has made an attempt to canvass the Ukrainian Wikipedia community to defend this article from deletion. See screenshot in Ukrainian (translatable with something like Google Lens if needed). stjn 23:53, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Canvassing is to be frowned on, but the irony is we're on the cusp of deleting this article about Ukraine...without Ukraine.😀 BBQboffin^{grill me} 21:22, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete All sources are either primary or not independent (i.e. by Biden himself), or passing mentions. Nothing else found. WeirdNAnnoyed (talk) 01:26, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

From author. Dear Colleagues, thank you all for your constructive criticism. It inspired me to improve the article: analytical sources have been added (Atlantic Council), the text is structured into different sections: Meaning, Before 02/24/22, After 02/24/22. Statements by representatives of Ukraine, Western countries and NATO are also structured. Please look again and re-evaluate the work Gornos (talk) 16:58, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting to assess changes made to the article since its nomination.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:20, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep as redirect and merge into Foreign policy of Ukraine. I think there's a misunderstanding of the phrase: this is Ukraine's official position on negotiations regarding the Russo-Ukrainian war, and Western nations largely have decided to respect this position. I don't think Joe_Biden#Aid_to_Ukraine would be an appropriate redirect since, according to the article's own content, this phrase didn't originate with Biden (Blinken himself said it before Biden did) and it was only popularized by his speech. That said, the content of this article would fit in really well into the foreign policy article. Also, just wanted to say awesome work with the article Gornos! Many thanks for adding in all the additional content, it definitely helps. Best, Dan the Animator 06:42, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the compliment, colleague. However, I must note that the phrase under discussion is not a purely Ukrainian negotiating position. Ukraine has not been conducting any negotiations with Russia since the spring of 2022, and since September 30, 2022, it has officially refused to conduct any negotiations with its leader Putin. The discussed principle “Nothing about Ukraine without Ukraine” is a position voiced primarily by Ukraine’s allies in this war. Therefore, I don’t know how correct it will be to combine this text with an article on the foreign policy of Ukraine. I would be glad to hear different opinions from experienced colleagues. Gornos (talk) 18:36, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Fair point and yes, Western allies definitely do use it more than Ukraine itself. That said, I still think it belongs on the foreign policy article given that article also covers relations between NATO and Ukraine plus the US-Ukraine relationship. If not a completely separate section, the content of "Nothing about Ukraine without Ukraine" could be split up into the different existing sections of the foreign policy article (particularly the Ukraine–United States relations & Participation in international organizations sections). In any case, I'd also be interested to hear other thoughts on the subject. Best, Dan the Animator 19:12, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Since the nom, many sources have been added showing repeated usage by the US president (May 2022 and November 2022), the German chancellor (June 2022), the UN secretary general (July 2023), and it popped up again at the August 2023 peace conference in Saudi Arabia. There is WP:SIGCOV that is WP:SUSTAINED and the best presentation of the material (now 9500 bytes) is to have a standalone article on the subject so the WP:READER has all of it in one place. BBQboffin^{grill me} 20:18, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep and improve/expand. There is a highly notable controversy behind it. The promise ("Nothing about Ukraine...") was repeatedly stated by several members of US administration, but apparently violated by very same administration [1],[2]. My very best wishes (talk) 04:51, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, _signed,Rosguill ^talk 20:02, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Final relist.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Daniel (talk) 03:35, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Looks like WP:SYNTH. Also could have been speedily deleted as article was created by non-extended confirmed editor due to WP:RUSUKR. Mellk (talk) 22:11, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Looks more like WP:ATTP: Delete: Creator has made only 27 edits so far. –NewbieHater (talk), 11:10, 31 July 2008 (UTC). If anyone's still wondering why we have a hard time attracting and retaining new volunteer editors, just look at the WP:BITE marks on Gornos' back. Then go look at the article he's worked hard to improve. If this gets deleted because the page creator was a "non-extended confirmed editor" I'll put it back in mainspace so it can be judged on its merits. BBQboffin^{grill me} 06:51, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Editors that are not extended-confirmed cannot make edits or create articles about Russia-Ukraine war, period. This is not my problem. I have already given my reason for deletion. There is no evidence of some kind of notable "foreign policy principle" called "Nothing about Ukraine without Ukraine" that deserves a standalone article. It is not our role to create articles using original research because it is mentioned in some speeches, though it might make sense to mention in foreign policy of Ukraine. Mellk (talk) 07:13, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No evidence?! That the principle is cited by both Ukrainian authorities and Ukrainian allies (Biden, Sholtz, Stoltenberg) is the evidence, and there are direct quotes in the article. "Nothing about us without us" (Nihil de nobis, sine nobis) is the only potential WP:SYNTH issue I see, but given how that phrase originated from the same part of the world (Poland, 16th Century), on hearing "Nothing about X without X" the connection of the two phrases becomes obvious: WP:SKYBLUE. BBQboffin^{grill me} 04:20, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We need reliable secondary sources for that. I only see a passing mention about the phrase itself in the Atlantic Council blog article but this is not a good source anyway. The other sources are either primary sources or the phrase simply appears in a quote, from what I can see. There are also a lot of phrases that Russian officials use for propaganda purposes, but that does not mean we should make an article for each phrase just because it appears in quotes. Mellk (talk) 04:36, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.