Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Michigan State–Ohio State football rivalry

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 02:01, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Michigan State–Ohio State football rivalry[edit]

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Fails WP:GNG with lack of significant coverage in multiple, independent sources. No rivalry exists between the two teams, and the very few sources listed only point out recent events. The page itself does nothing to describe this game as a rivalry or any history or "key moments," as are found in other college football rivalry pages. This page only consists of a one-sentence lead and a list of scores. Furthermore, routine coverage liberally uses the term "rivalry" to manufacture hype. A simple google search of "Ohio State" "Michigan State" rivalry shows very few early results about the series between these two teams. Most are either describe a recent game only, or talk about other subjects entirely and just happen to have these terms in them. Frank Anchor^Talk 01:01, 5 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions. Frank Anchor^Talk 01:16, 5 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sports-related deletion discussions. Frank Anchor^Talk 01:16, 5 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Michigan-related deletion discussions. Frank Anchor^Talk 01:16, 5 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ohio-related deletion discussions. Frank Anchor^Talk 01:16, 5 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. CBS Sports is one of the top authorities in college football. In 2016, CBS Sports rated Michigan State-Ohio State is the top, No. 1 rivalry in all of college football. See (1) here. Additional sources include: (2) The Detroit News ("MSU-OSU is now the big-stakes game in Big Ten"); and (3) Mlive.com ("Michigan State-Ohio State football rivalry blossoms with both projected atop the Big Ten"). The notability is also supported by the history of 22 marquee matchups in which both teams were ranked or a ranked team was upset. These marquee matchups include: 1951 (#1 vs #7); 1960 (#8 vs #10); 1972 (MSU upset of #5 OSU); 1974 (MSU upset of #1 OSU); 1975 (#3 vs #11); 1998 (MSU upset of #1 OSU); 2013 (#10 MSU defeated #2 OSU); 2015 (#9 MSU upset #2 OSU); and 2017 (#11 vs #13). Cbl62 (talk) 01:37, 5 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Michigan State has enjoyed a run of good football years, resulting in some recent successes against Ohio State, including 3 wins since 2000; but the talk of this matchup amounting to a "rivalry" is thin among RSs (CBS, plus two local sources, about a matchup dating to the 1950s), and where it can be found, in large measure plays off the better known and long established rivalry between Michigan and OSU. CBS is, certainly, an authoritative voice in college sports but I'd wait to see more from them on this than a single 2016 opinion piece based on a four-year run of the two schools' matchups. Indeed, one of the sources cited in this article is not entirely convinced by the CBS proclamation: "Could that turn around this year? Certainly. But for now, it’s hard to argue with [CBS analyst] Patterson’s logic". (Separately, while the marquee matchup statistics are interesting, they're OR as far as establishing a "rivalry" here.) JohnInDC (talk) 02:16, 5 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The number of marquee match-ups IMO is among the most significant factors in assessing the notability of a rivalry or non-rivalry series. And the rankings and results are readily ascertained, so I don't see how such data runs afoul of WP:OR. But what matters most is the existence of significant coverage of this series as a rivalry in multiple reliable sources. My guess we will see even more coverage in the next week as the game is due to played again next Saturday. Cbl62 (talk) 04:33, 5 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It is curious that you think there will be more coverage of this upcoming game as a rivalry, when there was no such widespread coverage in 2017, a game in which both teams were ranked in the top 15 (only could find the local story you had already brought up). Frank Anchor^Talk 16:56, 5 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Fails WP:NRIVALRY. This was only called a rivalry because the games between the two teams have been recently competitive - it is not a rivalry in any traditional sense of the word, no trophy or bragging rights are exchanged here. SportingFlyer talk 04:18, 5 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 16:29, 6 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep this, to me, is a clear pass of WP:GNG based on the two links in the article and the research by Cbl62 above. What matters most is the coverage, and that seems to be surpassed. If we don't think of it as a "rivalry" that doesn't matter, what matters is what the coverage points to.--Paul McDonald (talk) 22:02, 6 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

But you also have articles which explicitly state the opposite, like [1], [2] (calling it a 'mini-rivalry'), [3] (where the Ohio State coach says they are not rivals), [4] (not RS). SportingFlyer talk 00:37, 7 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, Ohio State coach Urban Meyer is on record saying it is a rivalry. From today's newspaper: "Obviously a big one this week against Michigan State. Very strong rivalry that we have a lot of respect for that team and they're playing as good a defense as there is in the country." See here, here, and here. Cbl62 (talk) 01:24, 7 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The teams have been playing regularly for more than 65 years and we have, what, 4 sources, all from within one 2 year period (only one of them national), calling the thing a "rivalry". You can do that with so many non-rivalry matchups, that to credit every mention as establishing a "rivalry" renders the term meaningless. Like, here's Ohio State-Purdue, Ohio State-Notre Dame, Iowa-Everyone. It's too soon here. (And again - those matchup stats are OR, unless we have an RS that correlates them with "rivalries".) JohnInDC (talk) 01:49, 7 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree there are a lot of "rivalries" that are not worthy of articles, but this one is different. This isn't just a local paper calling it as "a rivalry" in a pre-game write-up; this is one of the preeminent national outlets assessing all of the rivalries in the sport and concluding that MSU-OSU is the No. 1 rivalry in the entire country. Here is the actual CBS link. Cbl62 (talk) 02:26, 7 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

But no one had talked about the series as a "rivalry" until that piece, which was an analytical look at which games had been competitive - not a report on the culture of a college football rivalry (Stanford-Oregon isn't a rivalry either), and when brought up to others - like the coach of one of the teams - they denied it... SportingFlyer talk 03:02, 7 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong. As noted above, Urban Meyer calls it "a very strong rivalry." Cbl62 (talk) 04:52, 7 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

And, as also stated above, he calls it "not a rivalry." Frank Anchor^Talk 13:38, 7 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The gist of that article is simply that MSU is not THE rivalry for OSU. In any event, Meyer appears to have an open mind (as we all should), as he now (i.e., this week) calls it "a very strong rivalry". Cbl62 (talk) 19:21, 7 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"Keeping an open mind" is a different standard than GNG, and as the annual matchup approaches this weekend we are seeing little or nothing in the way of RS coverage describing it as a "rivalry". A hard-fought series lately, a possible stumbling block for OSU - all of that, yes, but "another contest in this annual rivalry" - no. This may be one case where the the absence of proof amounts to proof of absence. JohnInDC (talk) 16:25, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed that WP:GNG is the standard -- it requires significant coverage in multiple, reliable sources. We have such coverage already from CBS Sports, the Detroit Free Press, The Detroit News, Mlive.com (a consortium of Michigan newspapers), and from the mouth of Urban Meyer himself earlier this week. The Free Press again today called it as a "strong rivalry". here. There's more significant coverage of this rivalry than 90% of the CFB rivalry articles. It seems to me that there may be other issues at play here, as many in the University of Michigan and Ohio State fan bases are emotionally resistant for some reason to recognizing this as a rivalry -- despite what CBS Sports, Urban Meyer, and other reliable sources say. Cbl62 (talk) 17:30, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

WP:GNG states multiple, independent, reliable sources. All of the above, with the exception of CBS, are local stories affiliated with the Ohio or Michigan region (albeit not with the universities themselves in most cases). Not widespread independent coverage by any means. Meyer's opinion is probably the furthest thing possible from an independent source.Frank Anchor^Talk 18:23, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Also, the (local) Detroit Free Press story you mentioned today calls the game a "strong rivalry" because "[MSU head coach Mark] Dantonio is one of six coaches who have multiple wins over Urban Meyer at Ohio State since he arrived in Columbus in 2012." Using that justification, there should also be a Clemson-OSU rivalry since Clemson HC Dabo Swinney also beat Meyer twice (there are no other coaches, the six brought up by the Free Press inaccurate.) Frank Anchor^Talk 18:37, 9 November 2018 (UTC)'[reply]

Frank: Your contention that major metropolitan newspapers are not independent is simply wrong and unsupported by policy. To the contrary, major metropolitan daily newspapers are viewed as both reliable and independent. The argument about Clemson-OSU just makes no sense: the teams have only played handful of times, and no sources discuss it a rivalry. As for Meyer's pronouncement of a "strong rivalry", what matters is that it has been covered in multiple, reliable, and independent sources. Cbl62 (talk) 22:44, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, efforts to preclude reliance on major metropolitan dailies have been repeatedly rejected. See, e.g., Wikipedia talk:Notability#Local sources, again. Cbl62 (talk) 22:47, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think the issue with this is you're trying to prove a rivalry exists instead of passing WP:GNG. WP:RIVALRY isn't really helpful - it just says it has to pass WP:GNG. But this WP:GNG is grasping at straws with actually proving a rivalry exists. It's important to note the CBS Sports article, which the keep votes are basically predicated on, excludes "traditional rivalries" from its metrics - those are the rivalries which would satisfy WP:RIVALRY (though I wouldn't call the exclusion a complete one: Alabama-LSU wasn't excluded for some reason.). SportingFlyer talk 11:22, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. There's absolutely no way a football rivalry among two states of the same country makes for encyclopedic content. Whats next? India-Pakistan Cricket Rivalry?--N Ø 12:36, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Is this a real vote? India–Pakistan cricket rivalry happens to be one of the most notable sporting rivalries on this planet. Cbl62 (talk) 14:15, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ok I had no idea that had an article. But for what its worth I would support deleting that one as well. Its simply not worthy of an article in my opinion.--N Ø 15:20, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You do realize that one has 36 independent third party references and is a thundering pass of the general notability guideline, right? WP:IDONTLIKEIT is not a reason to delete an article.--Paul McDonald (talk) 21:29, 9 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A simple WP:IDONTLIKEIT vote. Let's ignore and move on. SportingFlyer talk 11:22, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"Let's ignore and move on". Cool, thats what you should have done from the start. Leave my !vote alone.--N Ø 05:36, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - this rivalry is so well known in the United States that I remember seeing advertisements in Texas that joked about it, when I lived there. It certainly dominates the sporting news here in Ohio. 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 18:51, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- That's the rivalry with the University of Michigan, not Michigan State. JohnInDC (talk) 18:54, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  - Yup, I just looked it up. Still being an Oregon State fan, I've not paid enough attention, obviously. 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 18:55, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.