Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Luc Beausoleil (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. -- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 05:29, 17 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Luc Beausoleil[edit]

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Previous AfD in 2014 marred by a good bit of (inaccurate) wikilawyering, so let's set up some disclaimers up front: to wit, playing in the Alpenliga does not (nor ever has) satisfy the requirements of NHOCKEY. Winning a second-team all-star citation in the junior amateur leagues does not (nor ever has) satisfy the requirements of NHOCKEY. Playing a lot of games in the now-defunct Central Hockey League does not (nor ever has) satisfy the requirements of NHOCKEY. Nothing the player did in his career, in fact, satisfies NHOCKEY, part and parcel of the article creator's oeuvre of making many hundreds of articles in open defiance of notability standards, for which he was eventually community banned from new article creation. We're left, therefore, with the GNG, and there is no evidence beyond routine sports coverage debarred by WP:ROUTINE that the subject meets it. Ravenswing 12:18, 9 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ice hockey-related deletion discussions. MassiveYR ♠ 12:24, 9 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Canada-related deletion discussions. MassiveYR ♠ 12:24, 9 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Keep was a First-Team All-Star in 2000 in the CHL. See [1]. This satisfies WP:NHOCKEY criterion #3. In fairness, this wasn't in the article. I will add it shortly. Smartyllama (talk) 12:34, 9 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- The article has now been edited to reflect the fact that the subject passes WP:NHOCKEY. Smartyllama (talk) 12:41, 9 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  - Comment: @Smartyllama: an election to an All-Star Game's starting lineup does not pass #3, it must be an end-of-season First Team. Over a dozen people go to the all-star game, but only six make a First team. Yosemiter (talk) 12:46, 9 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    - @Yosemiter: - If you read the source, that All-Star game was played against the All-Stars from the QJHL. So while there would have been 12 starters in that game, only six would have been from the CHL. Smartyllama (talk) 12:49, 9 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    - And in any case, per [2], he is third in the league in career goals, so he passes anyway. Smartyllama (talk) 12:51, 9 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
      - @Smartyllama: I was pointing out that you were extrapolating NHOCKEY #3 from what it explicitly states. You can easily find many past discussions that unless NHOCKEY addresses an award directly, then it is not included and therefore a player must pass GNG on their own merit. There are no "equivalent" awards to be assumed. Although to be fair (and why I have not yet come to a conclusion on this player), the CHL is a bit problematic for #3 as it does not appear to have had All-CHL teams prior to 2005, at least per these stats pages. (Also they played the West Coast Hockey League, not the QJHL(sp?). They also had fans vote for who started, so it could be viewed as a popularity award.)
        In regards to the "Top-10 career scorer", it depends on your interpretation. Since the player was in the league from its inception, and was a top scorer in one season, he was at one point a top-10 scorer in the league (your source is from 2003, he has since been passed.) When the league ended in 2014, he was 13th in career scoring and 7th in goals. Take that as you will. Yosemiter (talk) 14:33, 9 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
      - (sighs) This is just the sort of argument that went on in the first AfD. @Smartyllama:, NHOCKEY is quite explicit, and it's been changed and changed again to try to weed out these "interpretation" stunts people keep throwing out there. NHOCKEY is met by an end-of-season First Team All-Star in the appropriate leagues. NOT a conference all-star, NOT playing in the all-star game, First Team league-wide All-Star. Period. "Top-ten career scorer" doesn't mean "goals" scorer, "assists" scorer, "shorthanded goals" scorer, "penalty minutes" scorer or anything of the sort: it means points, period. The subject just does not meet Criterion #3. Ravenswing 14:52, 9 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
        Thanks for correcting me about the definition of "scoring." I'll admit I'm not as familiar with hockey terminology as I am with other sports. In any case, he was fifth in career points according to the same citation, so it still counts. Maybe he's not in the top 10 anymore, but notability is not temporary. If he would have met the current notability standards in 2003, he's still notable, and will continue to be forever unless the standards (not just the all-time leaders) change. Obviously some common sense has to apply - the first ten goal scorers in league history probably aren't notable even though they, however briefly, were in the Top 10, but that's obviously not the case here. He was in the Top 10 for a substantial period of time well into the league's history. That would have made him notable then, assuming we had the current standards in place, and if that's the case, he's still notable now. Smartyllama (talk) 16:08, 9 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
        There is a problem with citing that particular source as a basis for passing NHOCKEY, simply the totals are incorrect. For some reason the internet hockey database has the same error where some stats from a different league are added in together. Not a huge difference, but problematic if you want to be definite.18abruce (talk) 09:43, 10 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 13:44, 9 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Quebec-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 13:44, 9 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - Passes NHOCKEY.BabbaQ (talk) 14:53, 10 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Keep I have to say I have some reluctance in this, but he quite plainly did meet criterion #3 of WP:NHOCKEY. At the time of his final season in the CHL (1999-2000) he was ranked 3rd all-time in points. That was the eighth season of a small league, I am not fully convinced how "pre-eminent" that really is, but he did remain in the top ten until 2010-11 season when he was pushed out by that household name Sébastien Thinel.18abruce (talk) 18:52, 10 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
~~Very Weak Delete:~~ Similar to 18bruce, I am not fully convinced about the pre-eminent honor of being a top scorer in a young league and then eventually getting pushed out. So I will ignore NHOCKEY for now. Based on GNG I found this non-primary, non-local article that, while short, is about him and I will give that as a single source towards GNG. However, since his prime playing days were in the late 90s, it is possible and perhaps likely that there were print articles that I have not found in the archives, especially in the Tulsa region. If someone can find one article significantly about him that is not just a signing or WP:ROUTINE game coverage, I think I could easily flip to keep. Either way though, this is one of the less offensively bad player articles created by Dolovis.Yosemiter (talk) 16:38, 11 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- There's this. It's local, but I'd argue a number retirement is non-routine and it's certainly non-primary. Smartyllama (talk) 16:43, 11 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  - Seems just barely good enough then. As I said, there probably are a couple in print as well somewhere. My typical thinking is all local coverage is good for one GNG source and at least one other non-local source at least points towards GNG (but that is just my opinion on GNG interpretation). Yosemiter (talk) 16:53, 11 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as passing WP:NHOCKEY. gidonb (talk) 01:10, 13 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.