Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of international presidential trips made by Dmitry Medvedev

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎ . Randykitty (talk) 16:43, 21 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

List of international presidential trips made by Dmitry Medvedev[edit]

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List of international presidential trips made by Dmitry Medvedev (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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Fails NLIST and CLN/AOAL. No sources show this list has been previously discussed as a group by IS RS. All listed events are nn and do not have articles, so list serves no CLN or AOAL navigation purposes. OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a rationale to keep a list that fails all criteria.  // Timothy :: talk  23:25, 3 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. A list of his fascist posts on Telegram, or of distasteful memes about him, would be more interesting, and probably better meet the notability guidelines for lists.  —Michael Z. 04:18, 5 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Why is going on here? “Keep” voters are wilfully ignoring, nay misleading us about the fact that this list is practically entirely sourced with a single, WP:unreliable, non-WP:independent, WP:primary source. It can literally only exist as a WP:link farm promoting the Kremlin.  —Michael Z. 03:21, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If the referencing is insufficient, this is not a reason for immediate deletion because it can be improved (unless it is not possible to find RS). But you are resorting to ad hominem. Mellk (talk) 11:08, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: The visits themselves are individually notable (e.g. random examples, [1], [2], [3], [4], [5]) and were covered in contemporary sources. The choices of countries he chose to travel to were likewise discussed and analyzed in contemporary coverage, satisfying the core of WP:NLIST (examples pulled at random including [6], [7]). Although Medvedev in hindsight was clearly just a lackey, it wasn't always covered as such at the time, and his state visits and choices were given a sufficient level of analysis that this article should be kept. Nomader (talk) 14:50, 6 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    In which of those this “has been discussed as a group or set”?  —Michael Z. 14:53, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I'd respectfully prefer to avoid WP:REFBOMBING, but I think that where there are articles discussing multiple visits that he is doing and why he is doing them, that it would suit the criterion here -- it doesn't need to be a holistic discussion of all of his visits. Nomader (talk) 21:20, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    It need to discuss them as a group or a set. One of your “satisfying” references was published before he was president. The other is about the relationship with China including visits there only. You are not even REFPEASHOOTING, because none of them indicate notability of this set.  —Michael Z. 21:42, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. The individual visits were covered in press, but it does not mean any of them was notable. We can not have a page about his every visit. If we had such pages, then this could be an argument. Hence, we should not have such list even for visits by Putin. Saying that, great images (especially one with Gaddafi) were uploaded from kremlin.ru by banned user Russavia. My very best wishes (talk) 03:22, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Dream Focus. Category:Lists of diplomatic visits by heads of state shows this is a valid list. The delete arguments are weak and are off-topic. Mellk (talk) 03:58, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    That a category exists does not automatically make every conceivable category member a notable subject.  —Michael Z. 05:16, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Good thing Nomader as demonstrated notability in this case. Mellk (talk) 05:32, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It does not provide any significant information. WP:SOAP, WP:NOTDIRECTORY. Indeed, even a list of his posts/memes would be more interesting and significant. My very best wishes (talk) 13:28, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If you read their sources and actually concluded that that is the case according to the guidelines, then I am disappointed in you.  —Michael Z. 15:46, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Respectfully, Reuters and France24 are both considered widely reliable according to WP:RS standards which is why I used them per our guidelines. Nomader (talk) 21:33, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Their reliability is not in question.  —Michael Z. 01:56, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
See for example:[8]. Mellk (talk) 01:00, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I decided to do some digging on other AfDs for articles of this category, because although each of Medvedev's visits have reliable sources covering them individually and clearly we want to avoid flooding his entire article with descriptions of them (they're each individually notable), I wondered have there been other discussions about this? Turns out there has been: Imran Khan trips, Sheikh Hasina trips, and actually a nomination for literally all of the lists of this type as violating WP:NOTDATABASE. All resulted in strong keeps (and in my opinion, strong precedents for keeps that should be followed here as well).
Personally, I think that Medvedev is absolute human garbage and it's downright obvious today that he held little real power while he was in office (as it was obvious then). I would much rather read an article per My very best wishes's jestful suggestion of making a list of his memes as being more interesting. BUT -- I think it's clear that the notability exists for this list to exist (per the sources I found, Dream Focus's rationale, and the precedent of all of these AfDs from the past year). I'd recommend that the lead include information about how Putin was widely seen as still being the leader of Russia during this time and some broader notes about his presidency from that respect. Nomader (talk) 21:28, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A lot of staff exists, sure. Some commenters say he is prepped to "succeed" Putin once again and negotiate the end of the war or strike the enemy [9]. So whatever. My very best wishes (talk) 03:56, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Meets WP:NLIST Lightburst (talk) 23:50, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    It does not.  —Michael Z. 01:40, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. I agree with the criticism made by the delete voters that there are not sufficient sources covering this as "a group or a set". Normally this would be enough to establish deletion under WP:NLIST. However, NLIST also has other language to examine, namely the following, "There is no present consensus for how to assess the notability of more complex and cross-categorization lists (such as "Lists of X of Y") or what other criteria may justify the notability of stand-alone lists, although non-encyclopedic cross-categorizations are touched upon in Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a directory." In other words, the policy language leaves open for the possibility of lists to be kept that do not meet the "group or a set" standard but have some other argued for rationale. In this case, we have a large number of sources covering the international travel of a major world leader. The quality and number of sources covering the topic, if only in pieces, generally shows a strong interest in the international trips made by Dmitry Medvedev. I believe such a list can be easily verified and supported in RS, and is of general encyclopedic value for our coverage of a major world leader as the visits by a foreign head of state by a major world power are going to have a wide impact on a variety of topics such as foreign policy, international relations, etc. In other words, it's encyclopedic, it's verifiable, it's useful, and as a list seems to be in line with all of Wikipedia's core five pillars.4meter4 (talk) 02:24, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Pretty good recipe, but you shouldn’t overlook that your only ingredient is poop. Kremlin.ru is linked eighty-five times! Remove those citations, and this list disappears completely, showing that the argument does not apply.  —Michael Z. 02:49, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    This is not a cross-categorization list (such as "Lists of X of Y"). It is a "List of international presidential trips made by Dmitry Medvedev (X)", not a "List of international presidential trips (X) made by Russian heads of state (Y)"
    The above boils down to WP:ILIKEIT which is not a valid arguement to keep an article.  // Timothy :: talk  09:36, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, actually one could argue that this is a subset of the list of Medvedev's Presidential trips, so it is cross categorisation ... not to mention, these are also subsets of Medvedev's official trips (ie Prime Ministerial and Presidential travel combined). His Presidential visits to the Kuriles or Chechnya or Ingushetia or Degestan all received interenational coverage and had international implications. My point here, however, is not to debate cross-categorisation, but rather to emphasise that there's widespread sourcing and repeated coverage of more or less every movement (domestic and foreign) of the leaders of the major powers. Were this a discussion about the the list of foreign trips of the President of the Maldives, sure, the grounds for notability would be a lot weaker. Regards, Goldsztajn (talk) 00:29, 12 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep First, as indicated above, there's a prevalent community consensus to keep articles of these types (and nothing to indicate a change in that consensus). Second, as indicated above, satisfying WP:NLIST is not reducible to a single threshold of sourcing related to the set/class. Third, the list can be reasonably justified as an WP:OKFORK of Presidency of Dmitry Medvedev#Foreign policy. Fourth, if Kremlin.ru is not considered reliable for this information there's a plethora of other sourcing available ... although I see no argument presented here why we should consider it unreliable for the *sole* purpose of identifying dates and locations ... back in the good old days of Kremlinology, Pravda was perfectly reliable for ascertaining the composition of, for example, the CCCPSU. Regards,--Goldsztajn (talk) 09:01, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    There’s no evidence of any consensus to keep articles “of these types.” There is a consensus to keep articles that meet notability guidelines, and the existence of articles doesn’t indicate otherwise.
    Regardless of NLIST, this list is practically sole-sourced to an unreliable, non-neutral, primary source (Kremlin.org).
    How is this an OKFORK?
    Fourth, seriously? The Kremlin is not a neutral source about the Kremlin for determining notability. Well where is this plethora?  —Michael Z. 20:45, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Still no sources showing this meets LISTN or CLN/AOAL. The above is either opinion or OTHERSTUFFEXISTS which are not valid reasons to Keep. All the sources related to Kremlin.ru are not independent, and Russian state websites are never a RS for information.  // Timothy :: talk  09:28, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    A source not being independent is not grounds per se that it cannot be used (WP:PRIMARY); we just need to use them with care. We use the Academy to source Oscar winners. The question is the information being sourced; political analysis of a trip, its success or failure etc, we would only use kremlin.ru as a source for the "official" viewpoint, but there's hardly anything contestible over the date and location of a presidential trip, it's just common sense. FWIW, there is however other sourcing which includes Medvedev in terms of multi-site visits; the US State Department offers a handy list: Visits By Foreign Leaders of Russia. Moreoever, simple searches show single texts which discuss multiple visits undertaken by Medvedev as part of foreign policy of that time (eg Duncan (2013) speaks of visits to Kazakhstan and China (and treats the visit to Kuriles as disputed territory); De Haas (2010) discusses visits to China, Germany) - these visits all constitute an element of Russian foreign policy that is simply too large to cover in the Medvedev Presidency article, hence this is an acceptable WP:OKFORK. Regards, Goldsztajn (talk) 11:08, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Lacks sources supporting that WP:NLIST is met. MrsSnoozyTurtle 10:14, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Seraphimblade Talk to me 12:46, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep per Nomader and Goldsztajn. While the present sourcing is inadequate there is no question that better sourcing exists for all of these visits. Mccapra (talk) 13:33, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Goldsztajn. Sourcing this to the Kremlin is perfectly fine. Having links to articles such as 2009 G20 London summit in the table would lead to the article more clearly meeting WP:NLIST. Walt Yoder (talk) 17:28, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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