Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kosovo Raid (1448)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Aoidh (talk) 03:51, 19 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Kosovo Raid (1448)[edit]

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Kosovo Raid (1448) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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There's essentially no sourced information about the actual raid itself in this article. It's all about Hunyadi and the Albanian–Venetian War I can't find any sources the even refer to a Kosovo Raid by this name Gugrak (talk) 16:45, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: History, Military, Albania, and Kosovo. Hey man im josh (talk) 16:54, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep there are several sources on this event[1][2][3]. The fact that Skanderbeg was en route for Kosovo before he was sabotaged by Brankovic (according to these sources) makes it a case of WP:SKYISBLUE for the raid/ravaging to have happened in Kosovo. however, if editors can not agree I suggest the name should be changed to Skanderbeg's raid in the Despotate of Brankovic or Serbia instead. Durraz0 (talk) 17:29, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's not WP:SKYISBLUE it's WP:SYNTH. Your sources make brief reference to Skanderberg raiding as part of a wider conflict. They don't call it a Kosovo raid, or go into specifics at all. This should be in the aftermath section of the main conflict articleGugrak (talk) 17:33, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
that is not WP:SYNTH. skanderbeg being 20 miles from where the battle took place and then to allow his armies to ravage the domain does not really place him anywhere except Kosovo. Circiacono goes into details about what happened. but you are right, it does actually not refer to the raid as happening in kosovo. skanderbegs raid into serbia or despotate of brankovic may actually be better. Durraz0 (talk) 17:58, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Scanderbeg ran around Serbia, plundering it and putting it to fire and sword" is not 'going into details'Gugrak (talk) 18:09, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
that and the stuff about skanderbegs motives "to punish the unfaithful krajl" along with "Indignant at not having been able to rush to Hunyadi's aid, in a war that could perhaps change the fate of Albania and the entire Balkan peninsula" is detail. this seems to be a case of WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT. Durraz0 (talk) 18:18, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's not detail that supports the creation of an entire article, and indeed your second quote is not even about the raid. This is not specific and noteworthy detail about a raid , and it certainly is not enough to justify an article.Gugrak (talk) 18:26, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It is, there is detailed information about this raid. you saying it is not enough is just a case of WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT. Durraz0 (talk) 18:31, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There's one sentence that has no detail. it's after thought that should be covered in the main articleGugrak (talk) 18:40, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with @Gugrak. Way too little information is known about the actual event, not to mention the lack of information of its background and aftermath as well, to actually have an entire article about it.
The vulnerability of the article has left room for editors to add a bunch of assumptions to the page. Even the title sounds inaccurate and misleading, this page should rather be a part of a wider article. Aleksandarstankov (talk) 20:02, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, there are multiple sources that talk about the event as user DurrazO has shown. Does the article need more sources? What article doesn’t? There is no good reason to delete this article. Alltan (talk) 19:33, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Those sources don't specifically talk about the event though.Gugrak (talk) 19:43, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, I don't see any reason why to delete the article, since multiple sources approve that the raid happened as shown by user DurrazO. GermanManFromFrankfurt (talk) 00:55, 12 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There appears to have been a raid, but there's next to no information about it, indeed the article itself says so.. The bulk of this article is a summary of a war which already has its own article Gugrak (talk) 05:30, 13 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - This event happening is not a good enough reason for it to have an entire article about it. This article carry an overwhelming uncertainty through the following:

1. We can't even determine something as fundamental as the type of event this was - military conflict, massacre, "simple raid without any killings", etc.. We can't exclude any of them with the available sources.
2. We can't determine something as fundamental as the impact this event had - likewise making it impossible to reflect on consequences or aftermath of the event.
3. We can't determine for sure what led up to this event. One of the sources explains following: "Venetian attack on northern Albania delayed Skanderbeg in coming to Hunyadi's aid". [4]. Other sources will also explain a different role Brankovic had prior to this event.[5][6] Contradicting as to what's being explained as the "background of the event" on this article.

The huge gap of information available about the event, and it's background and aftermath, creates huge room for speculation. There is just too much we cannot exclude did and did not happen. Therefore, I agree this event should be mentioned and discussed, but rather as a part of a wider article. Aleksandarstankov (talk) 11:36, 12 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Frashëri, Kristo (2002). Gjergj Kastrioti Skënderbeu: jeta dhe vepra (1405-1468) (in Albanian). Botimet Toena. pp. 160–161. ISBN 978-99927-1-627-4.
  2. ^ Ciriacono, Salvatore (October 15, 2014). "Scanderbeg tra storia e storiografia" (PDF). Archived (PDF) from the original on 17 October 2020. «Indignato per non aver potuto correre in aiuto di Hunyadi, in una guerra che forse poteva mutare il destino dell'Albania e dell'intera penisola balcanica, Scanderbeg corse per la Serbia saccheggiandola e mettendola a ferro e fuoco, per punire il krajl infedele. Se ne tornò poi a Croia, amareggiato, verso la fine di novembre»
  3. ^ Setton, Kenneth Meyer (1976). The Papacy and the Levant, 1204-1571: The fifteenth century. American Philosophical Society. p. 100. ISBN 978-0-87169-127-9. Scanderbeg intended to go "peronalmente" with an army to assist Hunyadi, but was prevented from doing so by Branković, whose lands he ravaged as punishment for the Serbian desertion of the Christian cause.
  4. ^ Sedlar 1994, p. 393.
  5. ^ Babinger 1992, p. 40.
  6. ^ Vaughan, Dorothy Margaret (1 June 1954). Europe and the Turk: a pattern of alliances, 1350–1700. AMS Press. p. 62. ISBN 978-0-404-56332-5. Archived from the original on 9 April 2023. Retrieved 12 September 2012.
  • Keep per WP:N in the sense that there are reliable sources which do offer significant coverage of the events and their historical context. The article just needs cleanup and expansion.--Maleschreiber (talk) 11:07, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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