Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Keppel Gate, Isle of Man

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Sandstein 14:07, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Keppel Gate, Isle of Man[edit]

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Non-notable location. The topic is covered adequately in a table row at List of named corners of the Snaefell Mountain Course#Keppel Gate. I created that list-article to help address drama about multiple articles that was going on during 2015. The area has settled down, and this is cleanup. Non-notability of Keppel Gate was discussed already at Talk:List of named corners of the Snaefell Mountain Course#AFDs or otherwise deal with marginal articles on named corners. There is no substantial content in the article which cannot be included in one or two sentences in the table row. I prefer a "Delete" decision to get rid of all the garbage, although later a redirect to the table row may be created (and I don't mind a "Redirect" outcome instead). (Please see related Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2nd Milestone (2nd nomination)). --do ncr am 15:11, 29 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. I hate it when other editors delete content then nominate the reduced article for AFD, but it happens that I did just that, by my reverting an edit that both added and subtracted material. So to be fair, please see this recent version with its "Area of Specific Scientific Interest" section. I frankly am skeptical that the off-line source actually mentions Keppel Gate, given a previous dispute about what an off-line source supposedly said about another moor area, with respect to Windy Corner, Isle of Man. That dispute was resolved by my getting a copy of it (see Talk:Windy Corner, Isle of Man#February 2015 edits, which re-confirmed deletion / merger of that article). If in fact there is a genuine "Area of Specific Scientific Interest" near to the road turn, then it should more naturally be covered in a list-article on such areas in the Isle of Man. I suspect there is no interest in actually covering such areas in Wikipedia; rather the battle is to trump up supposedly related content in order to defend at all costs any TT racing-topic article. --do ncr am 15:52, 29 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The ASSI stuff seems to be online here: PDF. I'm guessing that the citation is referring to the stuff on page 108, but it definitely doesn't mention Keppel Gate, and my knowledge of the Isle of Man isn't good enough to be sure that Keppel Gate would be in the area listed. Harrias ^talk 10:21, 30 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Easily passes WP:GEOLAND being a notable named feature. The page already has plenty of sourced detail and it's easy to find more such as the 1881 Tourist's picturesque guide to the Isle of Man, "The ascent from Douglas to the Keppel Gate is interesting in the extreme. It commands a magnificent view of Douglas and of the southern portions of the islands, and on the east of parts of the parish of Lonan; while from the Keppel Gate...". Andrew D. (talk) 19:27, 30 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Your quote sounds interesting, IF it goes on to say something about Keppel Gate after the ellipsis. While from the Keppel Gate, what? But with all due respect, meaning this quite sincerely, what is there to say about Keppel Gate, that you would keep from the article or that you would add? It does not need to be stated that it is in between the 4th and 5th mile markers of some road, which is tagged "ambiguous" in the article, anyhow. Its location is that it is at 33.79 miles into the TT course, as already stated in the List of named corners of the Snaefell Mountain Course#Keppel Gate, and coordinates are given for it. In the current article, I would delete all mention of "Slieau Ree" and its etymology, which is not about Keppel Gate. The sections titled "A18 Snaefell Mountain Road" and "Motor sport heritage" are not about Keppel gate, and should be deleted. The section "Origin of the name Keppel Gate" is excessive, but a summary sentence or possibly two could be added to the table row if you like that content. I would delete the "Road safety" section; it is not important to tell the world that the roadway was resurfaced in 2006-2007. In summary, I am okay with merging a sentence or two about the Keppel Gate name to the table row. It is extremely late in the day, given contention running for several years, to be asserting there is valid content to add to the article. The article creator has tried to create/add content, but has in my view failed. User:Andrew Davidson, if you can/will add substantial content, please do so now.
Another reason to delete this article (or to agree that it shall not exist as a separate article, but be merged/redirected) is to end the longrunning contention at the article, in which garbage content is added periodically, and then deleted. By the way, the only interesting thing to say about the Keppel Gate (sourced anecdote about there having been a livestock gate, and the first rider opening it and the last rider having to close it, in long-ago racing) is included in its table row, but not in the current table, because the article creator contends against it and removes it. If this AFD does not approve deletion or merger, then I expect what would happen is that I and/or editor User:Rocknrollmancer would get around to cutting it down to one or two sentences, and it would beg the question why should this be a separate article. I suppose there could be a formal merger proposal at the article, in order to ratify the elimination of the article by a different process than AFD, and probably Rocknrollmancer and I and User:Agljones would be the only persons commenting. I am asking for other editors to pass the judgment that there is nothing of merit here, or at least not more than is already covered in the list-table's row about it. The purpose of the AFD is to get somewhat wider approval of the decision to eliminate the article, so that the article creator will not feel they are being unfairly treated. --do ncr am 20:42, 30 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Keep There is no issue of nobility WP:N or issue in respect to article length as shown by the article reversion by editor User:doncram [1] made 30 minutes before making the article deletion nomination. The same article revision confirms that the ASSI areas listed in the bone-fide reference confirmed by User:Harrias relates correctly to the article and also confirmed by this edit [2] by the same editor. Deletion in the same revision by the editor User:doncram of the Isle of Man TT references confirms that there may be no reason to redirect the article. The Kershaw article refers to a gate on "Snaefell Mountain" which fails the criteria for independent notability WP:N and it is well established that the Scandinavian word "gata" means a road or pathway and not a gate. The Kershaw article is further contradicted by the author Stenning and the Mountain Shepherd Rhodes Tate and is also an example of Circular reporting and Confirmation bias.

The article relates to an area of Common land in the Isle of Man and also one of three purpose built sections of the A18 road created in the late nineteenth century. The article also relates to one of four areas of the main A18 road extensively modified in the in 1920’s for the Isle of Man TT races. The article passes the Georoad criteria as the area is occupied WP:GEOROAD. The article relates to the significant purchase of Common land from a feudal land-owner in the nineteenth century and to Scandinavian place names found in the Isle of Man and the same type of Scandinavian place-name can also be found in parts of Northern England. The area in the article has significant post-glacial features which relates to the etymology of the area and relates to another similar article, but this other article not nominated for deletion (?) The area of Keppel Gate has connections to Isle of Man folk-lore and is also an ancient right of way.

The article List of named corners of the Snaefell Mountain Course has no citation for independent notability WP:N and the same non-list article has major issues with copyright and image infringements, made up sections WP:MADEUP without independent verifiability WP:V. During the same discussion about copyright issues another editor [3] may have defined this Keppel Gate article for deletion and the Windy Corner article as “historical notable place-names” which is collaborated by primary, secondary and tertiary sources which is acceptable by Wikipedia WP:PRIMARY. As the non-list article has no independent nobility (and unlikely ever to do so) redirection of the Keppel Gate article or any other article as a “ historical notable place-names” would be a synthesis of sources WP:SYN (confirmed by the tagging of citations in the article revision of 14:31, 29 April 2017 [4] by the editor User:doncram) and another possible major copyright infringement WP:COPY.
agljones(talk)19:04, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Absolute nonsense. The original author is willfully ignorant about copyright and about standalone list-articles and more, despite lots being explained to them time and again. --do ncr am 20:56, 9 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 03:51, 5 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sports-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 03:51, 5 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Europe-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 03:51, 5 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Kurykh (talk) 01:43, 7 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I opened this AFD. Editor User:Harrias corroborated above that the material in the article about an Area of Special Scientific Interest is bogus, which tends toward supporting deletion, although they didn't vote explicitly. Editor User:Andrew Davidson voted Keep but did not reply to comment/question, i wish they would. Otherwise there is just the original author's Keep vote. Since the AFD opened, the original author has added material about the ASSI to the article, and I have deleted it, and they added it and possibly more again, and I just deleted it again. I would appreciate deletion to end the cycle. I hope some more editors could see their way to commenting here, and/or for a closer to really consider the merits of the situation and not simply go with the majority of votes (2:1 against me i guess) so far. If the article is retained by "Keep" or "No consensus" then I do expect I will edit it down to one sentence and expect to go on battling forever with the original author. :( Or maybe I could come up with a bunch of negative tags to post on the article to make it an awful experience for readers, and just maintain those forever. Argh. I would appreciate some help to just get rid of this, instead. --do ncr am 20:54, 9 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The Keppel Gate article refers to a “historical notable place-names” as a substantial area of common land of cultural, scientific and historic interest purchased from a former feudal landowner. Also, the later road built in the period 1864-1869 and then later modified in 1922 was significantly also one of perhaps three significant purpose built section of the A18 road as the principal and main thoroughfare in the Isle of Man used for different types of motor sport events since 1903. There is no issue of notability WP:N or article length as shown by repeated vandalism and article revisions by the editor User:doncram and the burden of proof lies with any editor adding or removing text WP:BURDEN which has not been demonstrated.

Redirection to the list-article represents content forking WP:CFORK and reverse spin-out. Also a list-article should not be used as a repository for citations that would not be considered in a stand-alone article due to issues of notability or verifiability WP:N, WP:V . The list-article still has no citation for independent notability WP:N (citation unlikely ever to be found) is incorrectly titled and still has major copyright issues as shown by this confirmation by the User:doncram in this edit of 21:58, 15 February 2017 [5]. Inclusion in the list-article would represent synthesis WP:SYN of sources not permitted by Wikipedia and the term "Snaefell Mountain Course" is a contemporary local historic newspaper term for the Highroads Course.

With this reverted edit [6] of 16:58, 23 May 2016 editor User:doncram has used this text in respect to moorland;- “The left-hander in the direction of the TT course demarks the start of the steep descent off the Mountain towards the finish line in Douglas a few miles away, and the transition from moorland grazing to arable farmland at a lower altitude.” The editor User:doncram has never historically given an alternative explanation or definition for the heath and heather moorland, despite the numerous references in secondary sources.agljones(talk)07:29, 14 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Adequately covered in Snaefell Mountain Course, not enough for independent notability, despite the plethora of offered sources. Many are mere repeats and the vast majority are mere passing mentions. Nothing in WP:GEOLAND applies to named corners of a racecourse and linking to essentially similar same racecourse descriptions from multiple years is nearly deceptive. The attempted inclusion of Keppel Gate as an Area of Special Scientific Interest is pure WP:OR. Larding the article with mulitple poor sources does nothing to demonstrate actual independent notability. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:12, 15 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment There is no issue of Original research WP:OR as the bona fida reference was identified by the User:Harrias in respect to the Area of Special Scientific Interest (ASSI). There is no issue of synthesis WP:SYN as the report identified by editor User:Harrias is completely self-contained and heath, heathland and heather moorland in the British Isles (including Ireland and the Isle of Man) has been identified of being of scientific interest by the European Community. The term in British-English is “moorland” and Wikipedia does not permit ‘edit-warring’ over differences in style. The area of former Crown Common land of Keppel Gate is within the upland Mountain Lands (an Area of Special Scientific Interest which can be located on an 'appropriate map' a process permitted by Wikipedia WP:PRIMARY) representing 29 percent by area of the “semi-natural habit” (including the heather moorland) of the Isle of Man. The conservation “hot-spot” as a slightly separate issue are identified by map references. This includes the description of “Kate’s Cottage” which as recently as April 2017 was described as “Kate’s Cottage, Keppel Gate, Onchan” in an Isle of Man Newspaper due to an ongoing legal dispute over land.

The area of Keppel Gate is one of a number of “historical notable place-names” and passes Georoad due to the sale of the land from the former feudal landowner due to the UK Disafforesting Commission of 1860 and “Keppel Gate” is repeatedly described in the sale of land catalogue of 1863. The notability of the article WP:N is not defined by Georoad as a place on the “racecourse” as this was not built until 1922 which was 59 years after the land sale and 56 years after the replacement road was initially constructed. Previously road construction in the Isle of Man in the Isle of Man had evolved over a period of 200 years rather than building new roads. The A18 road was a strategic initiative to improve road communications and ‘Keppel Gate’ was one of perhaps three purpose built sections to join-up existing mountain cart-tracks. During the initial period of racing cars and motor-cycles (1904-1921), competitors were diverted on to mountain tracks for various different reasons away from the normal route of the A18 road and this included Keppel Gate.

The main Snaefell Mountain Course article is not adequate as it need to be renamed and only refers to removal of fence posts at Keppel Gate in 1922. This article would be renamed and rewritten to take into account to the major reconstruction work in 1922 (including Keppel Gate) that had to be undertaken to prevent the Isle of Man TT Races being moved to Belgium. It is not possible to carry out the rewrite and include the new information due to issues content forking and spin-out due to the existing a differently named non-list article which is used as a receptacle for information which does not pass the process of independent verifiability WP:V. agljones(talk)09:47, 16 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, SpinningSpark 22:37, 16 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.