Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John Philip Shenale
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. The "keep" voters failed to analyze the sources indicated in this discussion. On the other hand, there's no consensus to delete the article either. (non-admin closure) ASTIG️🙃 (ICE-T • ICE CUBE) 12:30, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
John Philip Shenale[edit]
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- John Philip Shenale (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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Created originally by a sock puppet, there is no evidence of passing WP:NCREATIVE, I can find no in-depth significant coverage of him in any sources and notability cannot be established by osmosis/working with notable people. Theroadislong (talk) 17:41, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians and Music. Theroadislong (talk) 17:41, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
- Delete brief mentions of various musical compositions he's made but nothing about him. Oaktree b (talk) 17:44, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Canada-related deletion discussions. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 19:41, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
- I am the one who is to blame for all this mess so please listen to me before you remove the page. I had tried to add some edits a couple days ago. The edits have been removed. I am not talking about that right now. I respect those reasons and that's why I haven't tried to edit anything else. I am a different person to the one who originally created the first article and you are naming him/her a "sock puppet" probably because you think that I am a "sock puppet". We are 2 different persons.
- John Phillip Shenale has a music career expanding over many decades with colaborations from well know musicals such as footloose, little shop of horors up to the soundtrack of sons of anarchy which was not only succesful for its plot as a TV series but for its soundtrack as well. (He is a prominent member of the band called The Forest Rangers which is behind all those succesful covers along with the actress/singer Katey Sagal)
- https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0791501/
- https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1124373/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1
- https://whatculture.com/tv/sons-of-anarchy-10-best-forest-rangers-songs
- His work has been associated with 22 Grammy nominations throughout the years.
- He has been a major collaborator for decades with the singer/composer Tori Amos who mentions his work in her music often in her interviews. eg from a recent interview
- https://glidemagazine.com/266058/tori-amos-delivers-lithest-set-of-songs-in-decades-via-candid-ocean-to-oceanalbum-review/
- https://www.billboard.com/music/music-news/tori-amos-gets-into-holiday-spirit-for-midwinter-graces-267346/
- https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/night-hunters-tori-amos-classical-131157639.html
- https://exclaim.ca/music/article/tori_amos-strange_little_girl
- https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/tori-amos-performs-with-string-quartet-in-manhattan-248480/
- https://glidemagazine.com/19577/john-philip-shenale-in-conversation-part-i/
- https://glidemagazine.com/19595/john-philip-shenale-in-conversation-part-ii/
- He has worked for numerous gold and platinum albums in US such as everything and eternal flame by bangles, bathhouse betty with bette middler, belind/belinda carlisle, footlose (8 times platinum), streets of fire etc (there are many more gold and platinum albums, I can't put the full list here)
- generally reliable sources https://www.allmusic.com/artist/john-philip-shenale-mn0000815023/credits
- https://www.discogs.com/artist/267205-John-Philip-Shenale
- I could provide you with more links to interviews and web sites but I think someone can get the picture from the things mentioned above.
- I mentioned all the above in good faith, hoping that there is a will to do what's right and that you wanted some help because you think that Ratfae (talk) 13:13, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
- (I posted the previous texr before completing the sentence by accident)
- ... JPS doesn't meet the notability criteria.
- (his name is often typed wrong even in wikipedia eg it was typed wrongfully here at the Forrest rangers page (I didn't write that either) and I had to correct it so that it can connecti with his page. This may be the main reason why a lot of credits and refferences don't show up with a simple google search.)
- Thank you for all your time and patience reading this. Ratfae (talk) 13:19, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
- I'm afraid that being "associated with 22 Grammy nominations" is not a notability criteria and IMDb and interviews are not reliable independent sources as you have been told before. Theroadislong (talk) 13:26, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
- I will search more your criteria on reliable independent sources and I will post the ones that meet that criteria here.
- I mentioned those because I have seen those many times as references at numerous web pages.
- I could name the grammy nominations 1 by 1 with links from the nominations but it wasn't my point to fload the page here. If you want that, I can search for an official grammy list of nominations throughout the years even though most of those albums already exist on wikipedia pages. Ratfae (talk) 13:57, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
- JPS is a band member of The Forest Rangers The Forest Rangers (band) I have no connection with the person who created the page. I corrected JPS' name in order to connect it with his wiki page and added links for the wiki pages of their albums which already existed.
- I will add some more references here since I noticed that they are needed.
- The band crowdfunded the debut album
- ‘Sons of Anarchy’ Band The Forest Rangers Crowdfunding Debut Album
- https://www.billboard.com/music/music-news/sons-of-anarchy-forest-rangers-crowdfunding-debut-6221883/
- (JPS wrongly named PS)
- Land Ho (Album)
- https://www.discogs.com/master/992469-The-Forest-Rangers-Land-Ho
- https://www.discogs.com/release/7218037-The-Forest-Rangers-Land-Ho
- (the credit for JPS is wrongly stated as PS)
- https://www.billboard.com/music/rock/sons-of-anarchy-land-ho-bob-thiele-jr-the-forest-rangers-album-premiere-6620143/
- https://exclaim.ca/music/article/bob_thiele_forest_rangers-trying_to_belive_ft_alison_mossheart_video
- Sons of Anarchy Soundtrack
- The Forest Rangers - Theme Song https://archive.org/details/tvtunes_4206
- The Forest Rangers - Ending - Theme Song https://archive.org/details/tvtunes_4207
- Songs of anarchy – sons of anarchy Season 1-4
- https://rateyourmusic.com/search?searchterm=songs%20of%20anarchy&searchtype=
- https://www.allmusic.com/album/songs-of-anarchy-music-from-sons-of-anarchy-seasons-1-4-original-tv-soundtrack--mw0002266604/credits
- (JPS is wrongly mentioned as PS)
- https://archive.org/details/cd_songs-of-anarchy-music-from-sons-of-anarch_various-artists-alison-mosshart-the-fores
- Vol 2 https://www.allmusic.com/album/sons-of-anarchy-songs-of-anarchy-vol-2-mw0002447659/credits
- https://archive.org/details/cd_songs-of-anarchy-volume-2_various-artists-alison-mosshart-audra-mae
- https://archive.org/details/cd_songs-of-anarchy-volume-2_various-artists-alison-mosshart-audra-mae
- Vol 3 https://www.discogs.com/master/1597478-Various-Sons-Of-Anarchy-Songs-Of-Anarchy-Vol-3
- https://archive.org/details/cd_songs-of-anarchy-vol.-3-music-from-sons-of_various-artists
- Vol 4 https://rateyourmusic.com/artist/the_forest_rangers
- https://www.allmusic.com/album/sons-of-anarchy-songs-of-anarchy-vol-4-original-tv-soundtrack--mw0002801535/credits
- https://www.billboard.com/music/music-news/sons-of-anarchy-final-season-new-songs-exclusive-6243999/
- https://www.billboard.com/music/music-news/sons-of-anarchy-to-end-with-big-musical-bang-giant-sync-for-final-season-6229041/
- https://archive.org/details/cd_songs-of-anarchy-vol.-4_various-artists-amos-lee-the-forest-range
- “Come join the murder” The White Buffalo and The Forest Rangers
- https://www.billboard.com/pro/sons-of-anarchy-white-buffalo-come-join-the-murder/
- Curtis Stigers & The Forest Rangers – Travelin' Band
- https://www.discogs.com/release/15000075-Curtis-Stigers-The-Forest-Rangers-Travelin-Band
- “The Forrest Rangers” band changed the name to “The Reluctant Apostles” for some time before going back to “The Forrest Rangers”
- https://popculture.com/lifestyle/news/sons-of-anarchy-kurt-sutter-shares-music-video-featuring-katey-s/
- (JPS is wrongly named as PS)
- https://www.latimes.com/socal/daily-pilot/tn-wknd-et-0122-katey-sagal-20170121-story.html
- https://usrockermusic.com/2019/03/14/katey-sagal-and-the-reluctant-apostles-to-bring-anarchy-to-the-mint-may-1-and-may-2/
- http://www.theycallmedaymz.com/tag/katey-sagal-and-the-reluctant-apostles/
- I tried to do a research bases on the reliable scources that are proposed for parts of JPS' work
- here comes a list with some links
- Tori Amos
- The light Princess by Tori Amos at National Theatre, London, UK
- orchestrations John Philip Shenale
- https://www.nationaltheatre.org.uk/sites/default/files/lightprincess_backgroundpack_final.pdf
- https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/theatre/10319881/Behind-the-scenes-of-The-Light-Princess-a-musical-by-Tori-Amos.html
- https://theartsdesk.com/theatre/light-princess-national-theatre
- https://playbill.com/article/tori-amos-and-samuel-adamsons-the-light-princess-opens-at-londons-national-theatre-oct-9-com-210341
- Gold Dust https://americansongwriter.com/tori-amos-gold-dust/
- https://consequence.net/2012/06/tori-amos-announces-new-album-gold-dust/
- Tori Amos Gets Into Holiday Spirit For ‘Midwinter Graces’ https://www.billboard.com/music/music-news/tori-amos-gets-into-holiday-spirit-for-midwinter-graces-267346
- https://consequence.net/2009/09/tori-amos-details-holiday-album-midwinter-graces/
- Tori Amos Night of Hunters https://recordcollectormag.com/reviews/album/night-of-hunters
- Mentioned in interviews for his work with other artists
- https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/tori-amos-performs-with-string-quartet-in-manhattan-248480/
- https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/sons-of-anarchy-take-on-i-see-through-you-song-premiere-101212/
- https://www.mixonline.com/recording/music-production/x-marks-the-spot-for-audio-pros
- https://www.mixonline.com/recording/profiles/michael-marquart-rejuvenated
- https://www.mixonline.com/recording/thinking-big-with-a-bad-think
- https://thequietus.com/articles/10228-tori-amos-we-held-gold-dust-in-our-hands
- https://www.toriamosdiscography.info/promotional-music_other_category.html
- http://www.polarimagazine.com/musicreviews/tori-amos-gold-dust-review/
- https://imposemagazine.com/bytes/kris-kelly-we-flew
- https://recordcollectormag.com/articles/sympathy-for-the-deville
- https://www.frontview-magazine.be/en/news/addie-brik-announces-new-album-that-dog-dont-hunt-out-25-november
- https://palettemusic.com/project/tim-weisberg-time-traveler/
- https://en-academic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/161635
- Girls on Film: An Interview with Tori Amos https://americansongwriter.com/girls-on-film-an-interview-with-tori-amos
- https://toriamos.com/story/
- Some links for his work on films
- soundtracks
- footloose
- Holding out for a hero
- https://musicbrainz.org/release/d5c2920d-5dc5-4229-affa-35881ac3b09b
- little shop of horrors
- https://musicbrainz.org/release/d5c2920d-5dc5-4229-affa-35881ac3b09b
- Return of the living dead
- https://www.allmusic.com/album/return-of-the-living-dead-3-mw0001007530
- Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles - Coming Out of Their Shells https://archive.org/details/tmnt-cooos
- Sympathy for the DeVille https://recordcollectormag.com/articles/sympathy-for-the-deville
- Thank you for your patience and I apologize for the long list.
- (There are way more references I tried to keep both lists as short as possible. I can offer more links based on the list of reliable sources if you wish.) Ratfae (talk) 08:53, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
- Quality is perhaps more important than quantity. Which are the three (WP:THREE) most reliable sources that give significant independant coverage of the subject (i.e. not user generated and not passing mentions)? And/or how does this article meet WP:NMUSIC? -Kj cheetham (talk) 19:18, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
- I am still trying to figure this out so be patient with me. If I had to pick 3 sources from the list above and leave all the rest those would probably be billboard, rollingstones magazine and LA Times as the ones which are more recognizable than the rest but on the other hand there are the credits for globaly known hits such us holding out for a hero. Each part has its own merit so I am a bit confused. (I did check the list of the reliable sources. I haven't checked all of them still though.) Ratfae (talk) 23:20, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
- Sources have to in-depth with sigificant coverage The Rolling Stone pieces contain a single sentence each! Theroadislong (talk) 00:48, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
- I am still trying to figure this out so be patient with me. If I had to pick 3 sources from the list above and leave all the rest those would probably be billboard, rollingstones magazine and LA Times as the ones which are more recognizable than the rest but on the other hand there are the credits for globaly known hits such us holding out for a hero. Each part has its own merit so I am a bit confused. (I did check the list of the reliable sources. I haven't checked all of them still though.) Ratfae (talk) 23:20, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
- Quality is perhaps more important than quantity. Which are the three (WP:THREE) most reliable sources that give significant independant coverage of the subject (i.e. not user generated and not passing mentions)? And/or how does this article meet WP:NMUSIC? -Kj cheetham (talk) 19:18, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
- I'm afraid that being "associated with 22 Grammy nominations" is not a notability criteria and IMDb and interviews are not reliable independent sources as you have been told before. Theroadislong (talk) 13:26, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Ratfae, I think you've made your point. Please take a step back and let others weigh in.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, – Joe (talk) 05:04, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
- Keep The man has a remarkable resume, certainly more remarkable than a lot of lesser lights whose biographies appear in Wikipedia. Chisme (talk) 22:09, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
certainly more remarkable than a lot of lesser lights whose biographies appear in Wikipedia
- this seems to be WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. VickKiang (talk) 22:31, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting. It would help if some editors looked into a few of the many sources mentioned here to determine if they help establish GNG.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 04:52, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
- Keep, this article has over 70 sources, and that is very impressive. Davidgoodheart (talk) 22:31, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
- This is a completely false assertion. These credits are real, these writings are completely factual. The humas who gathered this information, submitted this information, are also real humans, deeply immersed in the music industry. Please read the sources and the links, and you will see. 2603:8000:DF00:1249:553:91BE:C811:8BEF (talk) 00:53, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
- I'm sorry if I posted my comment in the wrong place. This is a messy thread, dear Wiki. But yes I agree with Davidgoodheart that this is a KEEP article, and I meant to post my comment under Theroadislong comment that this is a sock puppet. I cant find a wauy to delete my comment and put it in my intended pLace. But know that JOHN PHILIP SHENALE is a massive artist and every facet is accurate in this article. 2603:8000:DF00:1249:553:91BE:C811:8BEF (talk) 00:56, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
- https://www.allmusic.com/artist/john-philip-shenale-mn0000815023/credits 2603:8000:DF00:1249:553:91BE:C811:8BEF (talk) 00:59, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.