Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Israel at the FIBA Basketball World Cup

This discussion was subject to a deletion review on 2017 February 1.
For an explanation of the process, see Wikipedia:Deletion review.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 23:36, 29 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Israel at the FIBA Basketball World Cup[edit]

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This article duplicates information that exists at the national team page of Israel. Therefore its unnecessary. Nations at the xxx pages are also reserved for events with multiple sports or disciplines. This one focuses on just one sport. Also quoting Peter Rehse, from another similar AFD [1], There is nothing demonstrating that [the country] performed anywhere near notable." Considering Israel hasn't competed in some of the events below. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 23:58, 14 January 2017 (UTC) Adding these related articles for a similar reason (the information exists at the main World Championships page).[reply]

Keep - Firstly I see no policy stated as to why it should be deleted, only the person's opinion. Secondly, saying some without having the world qualifying in it is not a reason to delete, if anything thats a move. Third, its not reserved only for multi sport events, every country has there own World Cup page, and Brazil for example has one for every year. - Galatz ^Talk 00:18, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Duplication is not allowed on Wikipedia. its not my personal opinion. If you took the time too look at the other related AFD's you would see there is a consensus to delete these sort of nation pages at a single sport event. For ex. the road cycling pages were all deleted with the same reasoning provided here. If a nation does not qualify for an event there is no need for an article. It is misleading the to the reader! Again nation pages are almost exclusively reserved for multi-sporting events as the above AFD's will tell you. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 00:28, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note to other user's and administrator's, the above user has had similar articles deleted in regards to their second reason [2]. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 00:30, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Delete all Initially I thought that these articles would be notable in tournaments Israel actually qualified for (like the Brazil ones Galatz mentioned.) However, after looking at the above AfDs, I don't think those are notable either. The Brazil ones should be deleted as well, and I have no objection to nominating them. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a reason to keep. Smartyllama (talk) 00:59, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Smartyllama:I could understand you saying the individual years like the Brazil ones more than the one that summarizes the tournament. There is not one other page that summarizes every appears at the World Cup. You would need to check hundreds of different pages to find everything that Brazil at the FIFA World Cup summarizes. It doesn't make sense to do that, the country at the games is inherently notable and meets WP:GNG at the very least. - Galatz ^Talk 04:44, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Not really. Brazil national football team would cover most of it. And in any case, Brazil has qualified for every FIFA World Cup, while Israel has qualified for one. If we put the Brazil ones up for deletion, we can discuss these issues there. But they don't apply to the Israel page. Smartyllama (talk) 16:46, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Delete all – spam like this is an embarrassment to Wikipedia. How many AfDs are there going to be on these? Laurdecl ^talk 01:07, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Laurdec1: You can't really say they are spam without reviewing them. For example, look at Israel at the 2017 World Baseball Classic. It is extremely well source, and no matter what, with that level of coverage you cannot say it does not meet WP:GNG.

Delete. Nothing notable about these pages. And huge lack of sources doesn't help it either. – Sabbatino (talk) 10:34, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Sabbatino: You are clearly generalizing, I gain use the reference right above you of Israel at the 2017 World Baseball Classic. How can you say that doesn't have sources or meet GNG? - Galatz ^Talk 14:39, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Your example is not the main subject here so I'm not generalizing anything. – Sabbatino (talk) 14:41, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Sabbatino: But you just voted to delete every single article, which means that you automatically are - Galatz ^Talk 16:13, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This is not the place for nitpicking. I gave my opinion and that won't change. Just because I have a different opinion, that doesn't mean you can come here and cry. The community's vote will decide what to do with these articles. – Sabbatino (talk) 17:18, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I voiced my objection to the hockey articles previously, not sure about including all of these sports together though. If you look at WP:SPORTSEVENT the clear direction is to expand the existing articles first and then evaluate whether an independent article is warranted. This was not done, the information was mostly just duplicated, and not even correctly. So the question is, (to me anyway) whether the existing pages would be improved upon if left up. Even after pointing out the errors to the creator, some of the mistakes were not remedied. I find it unlikely in retrospect that they ever will be unless I do it myself so I would prefer them to be deleted.18abruce (talk) 17:47, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete the individual year pages, as they are unlikely to really expand and offer little different from the main relevant articles, but Keep the "Israel at (insert tournament)" as that seems like something that could provide more in depth detail and a summary of Israel's participation in said tournaments. This would even go for things like the UEFA Euro championship, which as noted while Israel has never played in the final tournament, has participated in qualification (which seems relevant for such an article). Kaiser matias (talk) 21:08, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Merge into Israel at the FIBA World Championship, Israel at the EuroBasket, Israel at the IIHF World Championship, etc. The articles about the respective national teams are too big, and having those extra pages are a great way to keep them reasonably long. --NaBUru38 (talk) 22:16, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Strong delete per WP:NOTSTATS. Proliferation of sports statistics cruft that's best left to dedicated databases. Alternatively, merge - but keep in mind that Wikipedia is not stats database. Renata (talk) 02:40, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Israel-related deletion discussions. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 17:55, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - clear WP:NOTSTATS violations. Fenix down (talk) 09:21, 18 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Is there a way to approach each of these articles individually? It's hard to make a determination on all of them combined at a glance. For the instances where they didn't compete in qualifying or the tournament itself, I agree that there's no need for the article. However, where they did compete, there should be something. There might be some middle ground, but it's difficult to ascertain here. I think it's better to close this AfD and re-open it on each individual article. South Nashua (talk) 14:50, 19 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- @South Nashua: We tried that a while back, but there were way too many of them and it became unwieldy so they were all closed. Smartyllama (talk) 14:56, 19 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  - Acknowledged. Thanks for bringing me partially up to speed. South Nashua (talk) 15:12, 19 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    - @South Nashua:@Smartyllama: That is an extremely misleading way of saying it and entirely incorrect. The initial nomination was the same issue as he is bringing up here Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Israel at the 2015 FIFA Women's World Cup. Then you tried it again for only one set of articles and the result was overwhelmingly keep Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Israel at the 2016 European Baseball Championship (2nd nomination). Please show me how nominating the European Baseball ones by themselves got "unwieldy". I think he wants something more like Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Israel at the 2014 FIFA World Cup (2nd nomination).- Galatz ^Talk 15:28, 19 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
      - @Galatz: @South Nashua: I should have been clearer, you're right. However, what happened with the original AfD is that they were first nominated as ~100 different AfDs, which was unworkable. Then they were merged as here, but the damage was already done and it was closed. It's unreasonable to make people participate in ~100 different AfDs about similar articles. Smartyllama (talk) 16:57, 19 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
        Gotcha. In that case, if there's a way to separate out the instances where Israel participated in these events and the instances were they didn't, I could register my viewpoint. (former = keep, latter = delete). I think qualification can be considered a part of the tournament, but if they weren't in even a part of the tournament and there's nothing to explain some significant reason why (i.e. - a scandal or what not), then I don't see why there would be an article. South Nashua (talk) 18:09, 19 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
        @South Nashua: You're welcome to express that view anyway. There's no rule saying you have to vote all-or-nothing. And given there are multiple ways we could separate them (Galatz mentioned possibly separating them by sport) we couldn't possibly separate them by every logical combination. Smartyllama (talk) 20:05, 19 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment For the hockey ones, Israel never participated at the top-level tournament, which per WP:NHOCKEY is the only one that counts for conferring notability on players. They only participated in lower divisions, which don't confer notability onto players. I don't know if the same principle would apply here if we decide to keep only tournaments Israel actually qualified for. Smartyllama (talk) 20:11, 19 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

They did in 2006. - Galatz ^Talk 20:46, 19 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Galatz: Division I is not the top division. See 2006 IIHF World Championship, which is the top division. Smartyllama (talk) 00:02, 20 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Keep "Israel at X", Merge editions This information is better gathered at "nation at competition" level. The study of individual countries at major international sporting events (such as world and major continental championships) is a key part of any nation's sporting history (the performance at individual editions, ultimately less so). The per edition information should be merged into the main "Israel at X" articles. Also note that WP:NOTSTATS is entirely non-relevant to this discussion as the statistics gathered are very discriminate and are contextualised. Of much more relevance is the first sentence from Wikipedia:Five pillars: "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia: It combines many features of general and specialized encyclopedias, almanacs, and gazetteers." This type of information very clearly resembles that of sporting almanacs and is thus relevant to our community's scope. SFB 00:13, 21 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sports-related deletion discussions. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 17:16, 21 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 17:16, 21 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Delete all Just looks like a spam to me. Lots of violations as well — Preceding unsigned comment added by Izukiviktor (talk • contribs) 01:44, 24 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Question I'm not really familiar with FIBA, so I may have missed something, but is there anything noteworthy at, say, Israel at the EuroBasket 1975 that isn't covered at EuroBasket 1975? If there is, would it not make more sense to include it there rather than splitting the information out among (potentially) twelve different articles (plus the main one, I guess) that all cover the same event from marginally different perspectives? That just seems really unwieldy. Matt Deres (talk) 03:36, 26 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- @Matt Deres: I think for major events it is useful as you can go more in-depth on the team's performance than you would do at a tournament level. Personally I think that is best done at the Israel at the EuroBasket level where the nation's history and progress at the event can be better contextualised in a way that is not possible at any other venue (I see lots of value and merit in things like England at the FIFA World Cup). Especially for single team sports events, the summary of the nation at a single edition will always struggle to add much more to what is already present elsewhere. SFB 21:24, 27 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  - @Sillyfolkboy: I can understand that. Maybe even both 'rolled up' articles make sense. For example, we have an article on the New York Yankees and we have articles for each World Series that's been played, but we don't have articles on New York Yankees in the 1975 post-season (multiplied by similar pages for every team involved). Matt Deres (talk) 21:39, 27 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Delete At least all the individual year ones per the points immediately above. Matt Deres (talk) 03:25, 28 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.